inconsistant judging

[Joel T.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I have been down this same road myself, and understand how inconsistencies can happen... When you are in the middle of it however, you can walk away talking to yourself... The problem is that making the car more "correct" can be an expensive proposition, and if you are doing to devote more hard earned cash to your pet project, one wants to make sure that the investment is truly warranted....

Having said all this.. I'm heading to the Regional in NJ this May!

Joel

[John D.]

Re: inconsistant judging

This has been bugging me for awhile. I've been to two local chapter meets to have my car judged and after the first time I tried to correct some of the things that were incorrect so that I could get Top Flight because I wasn't off by much. So the second time I go and things that they said were correct the first time (such as engine stamping, etc) were no longer correct, which was a huge deduction. I even had my previous year judging sheets. They told me it was up to each judge. I spent alot of money and time to get the car right and it was very disappointing. I'm afraid to put more into the car because it just seems very inconsistant. Glad I got this off my chest.

Leonard, I read all the replies for once and just wanted to put my two cents in since 63's and 64's are my bag.
I always suggest that a car owner offer his Corvette for a chapter judging school. That in my opinion would be 1st on my list.
Since I am a founding member of the Pittsburgh Chapter I can accurately say that just about every chapter show we have the hardest thing is finding judges. Members will go to judging schools and then not show up to judge. Now I am not knocking my favorite chapter as this happens all over the world. We can't quite figure out the answer as to why though.

Getting qualified & experienced judges for the chapter show is quite difficult for sure. But you did good starting out at the chapter level.
Some fellows (me included) start out taking their pride and joy to a regional meet.
Judging is much more critical at the big shows and that's where you learn the most.
Have your block checked out by an experience person. The fact that the 1st chapter event missed it is definitely no surprise.
Holler if we can help you as that's why we are here.
And above all make it fun and a learning experience. Good luck, John

[Domenic T.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I will have to add that in all my years of building engines I only saw one that had to be decked and it was a marine engine.
I had decking done on a perfectly good block ONLY to change the quench.

The gaskets rot first, not the block, and when the gasket go's it leaks water.

Now I have seen a lot of corrosion around the water holes, but the corrosion is all inside the gasket metal O-ring, so what?

I think that corvette engines MUST be amongst the most poorly maintained because they have the biggest percentage of DECKING.

My 427/435 is a CE block and I have had many tell me to deck it and re-stamp for the $$$.

It is what it is.

I am not saying that decking is wrong but I am saying that many are decked not for the surface but for the #s.

Back in the day they had an acid that would lift the old #s when an engine was stolen and re-stamped, why don"t we document our engines once that way to proove it's authenticity if it is a re- stamped engine?

[Tony S.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Since joining the NCRS in 1981, I've seen this whole stamping issue take many twists and turns. In the '70's, we barely knew that there were any stampings on the block. Who cared? We were young and just loved driving our C2's hard and fast. Then as prices started excalating in the 1980's, and the hobby matured, our knowledge base increased and we began to understand the codes behind the stampings. Because we drove our cars hard back in the early days, hey guess what, we blew up some engines! After all, wasn't driving these cars hard in the early days what it was all about when you owned a C2? These were Corvettes--not Ramblers or VW bugs.

Somewhere along the line we went from not really knowing or caring much about the stampings to a Grand Inquisition to trackdown and burn the heretics that were restamping blocks. "Oh that's a RESTAMP!!" that, I guess, was supposed to make everyone recoil.

I think now we are thankfully headed to a more mature stage of understanding the practical benefits of a RESTORATION engine. After all, isn't the third word in N.C.R.S. 'Restorers'? If a collector is able to find a correctly dated block with the correct casting numbers that either has the original broaching with no stamping or can accurately recreate the broaching, research and use the correct fonts and correctly replace those stampings on the stamping pad, then I say WELL DONE. We should applaud the effort--not just allow the car into our fold through the backdoor as though there was some shame attached to it.

Honestly, when I remember how things were back in the '70's when I was driving the h*ll out of my '66 BB car and how much fun I was having, I really have to laugh at myself as I use a 20x magnifying glass to examine the "1" in the VIN stamping to see if it has a straight or a curved flag.

[William C.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Ont hing that should be brought up in this discussion is the approach the owner takes to a not (or score) on a judging sheet. As My friend Mr DeGregory points out a chapter meet has limited resources and of necessity not all the VOLUNTEERS are 100% knowledgable of small details that may affect the score of a car positively or negatively. That said, even though there is an appeals process in place, I would not use a chapter meet as a mandate to change my car, but rather as a point where I as the car-owner need to learn more about the issue identified. The owner can them make a determination as to how to proceed in an informed manner. This approach has the advantage of making the owner more knowledgable, as well as saving (potentially) some sums of money created by making changes for the sake of adjusting to each new score. The scoresheet is a guide to things to investigate, especially at a chapter meet, do the homework on the subject identify then change/improve as necessary, but only with the confidence that YOU as the car-owner are fully comfortable about the WHY a change is required.

[Clem Z.]

Re: inconsistant judging

i still don't understand how a car like the "last sting ray" with a replacement block is more original the a corvette with a original engine with a decked block ???

[Leonard W.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Well first off both of the judges who looked at the stamping each time are national judges.I'm not going to give names but the second judge and team leader told me that it is each judges opinion. Infact the guy who was helping the judge came up to me after and said he would have given it to me. Some examples of point differences from first time and second time, engine stamping 0 first time 38 points second time, rear exhaust vent 8 points first time 15 the second time,component fit 0 first time 8 second time, rear panel attachment 0 first time 4 second time, headlights 4 first time 0 second time, optional wheels 4 first time 10 second time, carpet first time 0 and 3 second time, exhaust tone 25 first time and 0 second time. The list goes on. I guess I should just suck it up, but when you go and fix things on the car thinking that you did all the right things and to find out the deductions could change at anytime from judge to judge frustrates me. I only missed top flight by 50 points and this car has side exhausts so I got full deduction for that.This car is very original and clean. I think if I decide to get it judged I will take it to a regional meet. Thanks for letting me vent

[Ridge K.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I will have to add that in all my years of building engines I only saw one that had to be decked and it was a marine engine.
I had decking done on a perfectly good block ONLY to change the quench.

The gaskets rot first, not the block, and when the gasket go's it leaks water.

Now I have seen a lot of corrosion around the water holes, but the corrosion is all inside the gasket metal O-ring, so what?

I think that corvette engines MUST be amongst the most poorly maintained because they have the biggest percentage of DECKING.

My 427/435 is a CE block and I have had many tell me to deck it and re-stamp for the $$$.

It is what it is.

I am not saying that decking is wrong but I am saying that many are decked not for the surface but for the #s.

Back in the day they had an acid that would lift the old #s when an engine was stolen and re-stamped, why don"t we document our engines once that way to proove it's authenticity if it is a re- stamped engine?

I do not want to hijack Leonard's very interesting thread, but wanted to throw my 2 cents in specifically about having one's engine block ("cylinder case" in some judging manuals) "decked" during an overhaul.

In my experience, Dominic's comments are right on the money. It should be very rare when an engine block is needing ..."decking". Fellow member Jerry W mentioned that "engines wear out, and blocks must be decked for repairs'. While true in some instances, I've personally only seen one or two cases that I heard of legitimate reasoning for decking the block. I've rebuild about one dozen muscle car engines for myself in the 40 years I've been owning/driving/ and enjoying these cars. I've never needed to deck one. In addition to this, I worked as a shop helper in a dealership (early 1970s, and peak era of muscle cars). In working with more complete overhauls than I can even remember, I only saw one block decked.

Not wanting to step on any toes here, but most know I have a tenancy to speak rather bluntly. In my opinion, many engine blocks are decked by machine shops looking to help cover the investment costs of their high-dollar equipment. Similar to "hardened" valve seats, ....which no one has ever shown me any documented proof that today's non-leaded fuels caused legitimate cylinder head damage.

Enough said.....

Ridge.

[Ronald L.]

Re: inconsistant judging

DOM

Going further, I recall we have the 'Restoration' definition very clearly posted on this site and real clear restoration is NOT taking a 327 66 67 and making it a 427 car, nor taking a 427 390 and making it a 425HP car.

As far as that goes, side pipes and knock offs w/ gold lines also fit the bill.

Those are all forgeries (sorry if your out there doing it) but they are. Just earlier this week we have one of our newest members looking for heads, only to find out more bad news is probably behind why the heads were not correct for his car.

Where is our NCRS data base of cars and their documented condition?

Where are those records that will flush out all those fakes? Ya I know, every GM former and present employee in the world will swear they don't exist.

[Duke W.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Brake shops turn rotors and drums for the same reasons even though most don't need it.

It's easier to make the cut and charge the customer for the operation than make the measurements to determine whether a cut is actually necessary.

Duke

[Domenic T.]

Re: inconsistant judging

No one has made a comment on acid lifting old #s that were decked off.

I have never seen it done but it was explained to me as to how it worked by bringing the old stamp out because of how the metal was arranged from being stamped.

They said the stamp arranged the metal very deep and the acid pulled the figures out even though it was decked smooth.

They also said that it was hard but possible to read what was suspected under re-stamped #s because they were usually not in the same place or that some letters and #s were wider than ones stamped over them.

This was done during the engine theft periods that took many original engines.
I saw a 56 convertable with new tires & rims, different seats and a good sounding engine with a 4 speed.

They also had tape holding the top together. I'm sure their dad didn't own a junk yard either. My buddy wanted to know why they didn't fix the top first before putting all that money in other areas especially with the new bucket seats. He finally got the big picture.

DOM

[Michael W.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Some examples of point differences from first time and second time, engine stamping 0 first time 38 points second time, rear exhaust vent 8 points first time 15 the second time,component fit 0 first time 8 second time, rear panel attachment 0 first time 4 second time, headlights 4 first time 0 second time, optional wheels 4 first time 10 second time, carpet first time 0 and 3 second time, exhaust tone 25 first time and 0 second time. The list goes on. I guess I should just suck it up, but when you go and fix things on the car thinking that you did all the right things and to find out the deductions could change at anytime from judge to judge frustrates me.

Leonard,

The small variations from one set of judges to another you've noted above may occur at a regional or national meet also. That's the nature of the (human) beast.

Don't go nuts correcting subjective things based on one person's or one team's opinion. Use it as a starting point to investigate if the deduction has merit or not. If not discuss with the judges if it comes up again- that's heavily encouraged and will usually resolve the matter on the spot. If the deduction does appear to be valid, evaluate the cost-per-dollar to correct it and take action if desired.

Sounds like you might want to get more involved with learning how the judges do their job and receive training to do their best in being consistent and accurate.

[Michael W.]

Re: inconsistant judging

i still don't understand how a car like the "last sting ray" with a replacement block is more original the a corvette with a original engine with a decked block ???

No one has made a comment on acid lifting old #s that were decked off.

That's because we're discussing Flight Judging and judging consistency, not authenticating a car. Apples and oranges.

[John H.]

Re: inconsistant judging

i still don't understand how a car like the "last sting ray" with a replacement block is more original the a corvette with a original engine with a decked block ???

Clem -

Flight Judging isn't about absolute "originality" - it's about the "appearance" of originality. The question isn't "is that part original?" - it's "does that part appear as if it could have been original?". Either it deviates in some way from the Judging Standard (appears to be typical of factory production), or it doesn't.

[Page C.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Hi Leonard,
In looking at your comments on your having your 1964 Coupe judged:
It looks like the 38 point loss was from the 2nd time it was judged. The mechanical judges didn't think the pad surface finish was typical factory production or didn't see any broaching at all that the first judges thought were OK. Did you ask the team leader or judging chairman to review this item with you?
The 25 point loss for the exhaust tone must have been from line 19 in Operations. If you have side exhaust on your 1964, I would have thought that the 25 point deduct would have been applied both times.
The rear exhaust vent. I'm guessing that is the rear blower fan in the back of your coupe. Something must have been wrong with it both times. Did you try and fix whatever was wrong from the first 8 point deduct?
On the wheels-do you have repro KO wheels on your 64. I don't have a 1963-64 JG but the 1965 judging guidance on repro KO's is 75% deduct with correct finish and 90% deduct with incorrect finish.
Hopefully the judges made good notes about there deductions and you can reseach these items and correct the ones that gain you the most points for the least dollars. Also if you get a chance to see any 1964 Bowtie cars, take as many pictures of them as possible.
Have fun that's the important part.
Page Campbell