C1 headlight Wiring Re-configuration

[Philip P.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

My point about the "brighter" was that the new lamps are advertised as that (Lectric LImited 25% brighter). They may be higher wattage compared to 50 watt and 37 1/2 watt that were original.
Phil

[Philip P.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

IN looking up what the new lamps are rated at (NAPA) low 60 watt high 50 watt, I think the low beam light is 50 watt when on high beam. On high beam you are using about 200 watts, at a nominal voltage of 13 there is over 15 amps draw, it is possible that the switch is not made to handle this. The original lamps would have about 150 watts which would draw about 11.5 amps well within the switch specs. At 13.6 volts a nominal healthy system voltage it is 14.7 amps for newer lamps.
Way to much information for my old brain.
Phil

[Bill M.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

I was wondering where you got the information on the 15 amp thermal protection rating on the headlight switch?

Phil and Ed:

My '59 Operations Manual, page 48, says the '59 has a 30 amp. breaker in the headlight switch. Check it out. It's under Electrical System, Circuit Breaker, in the Manual.

Bill

[Philip P.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Bill, That is interesting the ST-12 shows a (58-59)13 amp Circuit Braker with a 3 amp AGA fuse for the headlight switch but they do not show any fuse for the tail stop lamps. 1960 has a 15 amp CB with a 15 amp AGC fuse for the rest of the lighting. It may be a miss print in the ST-12 as it makes more sense that it would be 30 amp CB(58-59) to run all the lighting.
ST-12 Page 14-18 Specifications Section 12 (Chassis Electrical)
Does not explain the 15 amp CB they talked about in the 1958 chevrolet Shop manual however.
Phil

[Philip P.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Bill, I found a 58-59 wiring diagram and it looks the same as a 60. There is some missprint somewhere.
My2 cents....I think the switch for a 58-59 is probably rated at 13 amps and was upgraded to 15 amps in 60, because they were having problems, like what initially started this thread. The rating (13amp) was to close. Most electronics have a tolerance that can be exceeded for a period of time before failure. With the newer lamps that are available the 15 amp may be falling into the same boat.
Phil

[Bill M.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Bill, That is interesting the ST-12 shows a (58-59)13 amp Circuit Braker with a 3 amp AGA fuse for the headlight switch but they do not show any fuse for the tail stop lamps. 1960 has a 15 amp CB with a 15 amp AGC fuse for the rest of the lighting. It may be a miss print in the ST-12 as it makes more sense that it would be 30 amp CB(58-59) to run all the lighting.
ST-12 Page 14-18 Specifications Section 12 (Chassis Electrical)
Does not explain the 15 amp CB they talked about in the 1958 chevrolet Shop manual however.
Phil

My Dec. 58 assembled '59 has a 10A fuse for the taillamps and a 3A fuse for the instrument lamps. That part of the ST-12 for '59 (page 14-18) is wrong.

I calculate the high beams are pulling 12.5A (37.5 X 4 / 12), so there is no way one 13A breaker is covering all the lights. That part of the ST-12 is wrong.

'59 Owner's Guide says the 30A breaker controls all lights. That is wrong; my car has a fuse for the taillamps.

My guess is that the ST-12 for '60-'62 is the closest to right for my '59....
and that confirms the 15A breaker for the headlight switch from the '58 manual...

Bill

[David B.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

The collective experience and ongoing information being shared in this thread would seem to be a basis for a good Restorer article. I am interested in what Corvette Central finds in their research too. I wonder what the design specs (and tolerances) are for the repro switches? Even if they match the original GM/Delco specs, they might not be functionally appropriate for today's lamp current draws.

But, the other question is the ampacity of the wiring being protected. Just increasing the allowable current flow in the switch overload protection circuit is not a complete answer without looking at the wiring ampacity too. Wiring in a harness, exceeding its design temperature for extended periods, results in degradation of the insulation.

When I had my occurrence of flickering headlights, I initially searched for a faulty ground, loose connector, etc. It took some time to trace it to the switch protection system and simulate the circuit opening on a bench test. I attributed it to getting a slightly "oversensitive" switch. However, judging by the thread, it seems it might be more pervasive, perhaps caused by a clash of devices being manufactured for C-1 era headlamp draws vs. higher wattage modern headlamp replacements.

But, several folks have indicated that they don't have the problem with the OEM switches doing this (presumably with newer high wattage lamps?). So, I am interested in the final answer.
Dave

[Philip P.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

All, The ST-12 states there is a 3 amp fuse in the switch for 58-59, the replacement from Corvette Central is for years 58-62, it would be interesting to know what the 3 amp fuse in the switch is for. From a 58-59 wiring diagram is looks like it is the same as a 60 in that there is a fuse in the fuse block for dash lamps.
The 58 shop manual (full size) shows the 3 amp in the switch is used for the dash lamps and that may be the difference. It would be a head scratcher if the fuse in the switch, in a 58-59 corvette, is in the same circuit and you are not aware of it and it blows. It does not show up in the diagram that I found.
I agree that with some of the new lighting the wiring may also be a concern, if it is 50 years old like mine. Although if I was 50, it would be easier getting under the dash.
Phil

[David B.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Phil,

I see in the ST-12 that the wire gauges are the same for the 55-57 and the 58-60. In the 55-57, there is a "B" notation at the rear of the HL switch, which I take to be the circuit breaker bi-metallic strip. It doesn't appear on the 58-60 ST-12 drawing and I am not familiar with that switch. Maybe 58-60 uses a fuse instead? Although 3 amps seems only capable of handling the instrument lighting circuit.

Oh, to be 50 again, I agree.

Dave

[Dan D.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Scott, what did you find out with your investigation into this? I am working on headlight switches and the circuit breakers are a known problem for sure.

Thanks,
-Dan-

[Richard M.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Scott, what did you find out with your investigation into this? I am working on headlight switches and the circuit breakers are a known problem for sure.

Thanks,
-Dan-

Dan, Glad you found this thread.....

I too would like to know if this has been corrected on new replacement switches. I recently installed a new HL switch in a '60, from CC but the part was brand new in a package but a few years old.

With the car running at a few thousand RPM when breaking in the cam, I tested output voltages and lights etc. After about a minute with headlights on, they started flickering on and off every few seconds. Clearly the circuit breaker was triggering. The car has Wagner Halogen headlights.

For reference, I replaced the stock headlamps in my own '59 with halogens over 25 years ago. I did then, and now do much night driving here in Florida. My car has a original type Delco HL switch. I have NEVER had a HL switch circuit breaker trip or flickering.

I suspect I have a defective replacement HL switch in the '60 as well. It clearly doesn't meet operating design spec.

Since this is a safety related issue, I feel we certainly need some form of resolution from the manufacturer of this switch.

Rich

[Thomas H.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Dan, Glad you found this thread.....

I too would like to know if this has been corrected on new replacement switches. I recently installed a new HL switch in a '60, from CC but the part was brand new in a package but a few years old.

With the car running at a few thousand RPM when breaking in the cam, I tested output voltages and lights etc. After about a minute with headlights on, they started flickering on and off every few seconds. Clearly the circuit breaker was triggering. The car has Wagner Halogen headlights.

For reference, I replaced the stock headlamps in my own '59 with halogens over 25 years ago. I did then, and now do much night driving here in Florida. My car has a original type Delco HL switch. I have NEVER had a HL switch circuit breaker trip or flickering.

I suspect I have a defective replacement HL switch in the '60 as well. It clearly doesn't meet operating design spec.

Since this is a safety related issue, I feel we certainly need some form of resolution from the manufacturer of this switch.

Rich

I did some research into this and wrote an article for our club newsletter. Here is the link to it. Look for the "Lights Out" article.

http://clubs.hemmings.com/DelValNCRS/August_2013_Del_Val_Chapter_Newsletter.pdf

Tom

[Richard M.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

"Some" research, huh? That's a great article Tom. Proves the problem explicitly with scientific testing.

So, your last sentence, about you contacting the manufacturer. Did they ever resolve this on new units?

Thanks,
Rich

[Dan D.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

Hi Rich,

I am currently working on building a fixture and a developing a procedure to test, troubleshoot and repair these switches. There have been a lot of complaints on the forum about breakers tripping and dash lights not working. I can understand breakers not handling the current on 50/60 year old parts, but one would think that new repro switches right out of the box should work correctly. But if you read some of the past threads on this subject, apparently they do not.

Breakers tripping with Halogen lights is very common, as the Halogen's draw more current. For that matter new repro T3s from LL (actually Warner) draw more current than the originals, due at least in part from DOT requirements for safety and brightness.

I am trying to determine what the breaker ratings were for these old switches. It appears that 56/57, which have two breakers (headlights and parking/tail lights), are rated for (about) 15 amps for the headlight breaker, not sure about the parking/tail. This is from what I have read. If anyone had published data on this, I would love to see it.

I currently have 3 switches out of 6V 1954 cars. I am working on repairing these for a fellow club member. These switches have only one breaker, and this breaker handles every light bulb in the car. The breakers on the 3 switches I have interrupt at all different currents, but they are 59 years old and out of who knows what. I think I can fix these, but I need to know what the rating should be. 6V switches should be rated at double of what a 12V unit would be, or around 30A. But I need to know for sure.

Inop dash lights are usually caused by corrosion, and this is also very common on these old switches. The corrosion blockage occurs at the junction of brass/copper rivets and the nichrome resistance wire - dissimilar metals. I think I can fix this too.

As you can tell this is still a work in progress, but I did a mini demonstration at a chapter meet last weekend.

Fellow member Tom Hoyer did a recent article on these switches and it mirrors my findings to date.

Long term I would like to publish an article on this, but I need answers first and more subject switches to characterize and evaluate.

Soooo, if anyone has published data on breaker ratings I would appreciate having this data. This would be for all C1 (and C2) years as there are several variations over these years. Also, if anyone has old switches and would consider lending them to me I would much appreciate it. I would expect to have them for about 30 days or on demand (maybe more with the upcoming holidays). I will guarantee to return them in as good as received or better than condition.

If so please e-mail (dandill@aol.com) or PM me for details.

-Dan-

[Thomas H.]

Re: C! headlight Wiring Re-configuration

"Some" research, huh? That's a great article Tom. Proves the problem explicitly with scientific testing.

So, your last sentence, about you contacting the manufacturer. Did they ever resolve this on new units?

Thanks,
Rich