Volt and future gas milage standards

[Paul J.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

The market for hybrids may improve in the future, but it won't for electric cars.

I've worked with two electric car conversion companies, and I've spent some time driving electric cars. The cars are fun, and the torque is extraordinary, but at the present time these are just toys.

Americans will not be able to live with a 40 mile range, and suppose you are visiting someone who does not have a charging station? On top of that it takes hours to charge the batteries. Obviously, battery technology will change and the ranges will improve, but electric cars will only be used for short commutes, which makes them an expensive second car with limited use.

Another point that only a few people realize is that most of the electricity generated in this Country is from coal. Yes, this varies depending upon where you live, but by average around 60% of our power generation comes from coal. Be sure to tell the next person you see talking about how "green" electric cars are that it's powered mostly by coal. Granted, our future is nuclear, which most of the rest of the world has realized, including the Chinese (Germany and Japan will be buying power from the Chinese eventually), but it will take a huge amount of growth before our electric utility companies will take the investment risk in the next nuclear plants.

I remember when the Prius came out and they said that everyone would be driving one. Hybrid sales are increasing, but you still don't see that many on the roads. I know that recent supply issues out of Japan and the economy affects this, but it will probably be a long time before we see a lot of hybrids, or any electric cars on the road.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

i wonder why as much effort is not put into natural gas powered cars as we now have found a great supply of it in the states ?? it could be dual fuel also as the natural gas company vans around here have 3 welding size cylinders of natural gas and they tell me they can go about 150 miles before switching back to gasoline.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Volt and future gas mileage standards

The market for hybrids may improve in the future, but it won't for electric cars.

I've worked with two electric car conversion companies, and I've spent some time driving electric cars. The cars are fun, and the torque is extraordinary, but at the present time these are just toys.

Americans will not be able to live with a 40 mile range, and suppose you are visiting someone who does not have a charging station? On top of that it takes hours to charge the batteries. Obviously, battery technology will change and the ranges will improve, but electric cars will only be used for short commutes, which makes them an expensive second car with limited use.

Another point that only a few people realize is that most of the electricity generated in this Country is from coal. Yes, this varies depending upon where you live, but by average around 60% of our power generation comes from coal. Be sure to tell the next person you see talking about how "green" electric cars are that it's powered mostly by coal. Granted, our future is nuclear, which most of the rest of the world has realized, including the Chinese (Germany and Japan will be buying power from the Chinese eventually), but it will take a huge amount of growth before our electric utility companies will take the investment risk in the next nuclear plants.

I remember when the Prius came out and they said that everyone would be driving one. Hybrid sales are increasing, but you still don't see that many on the roads. I know that recent supply issues out of Japan and the economy affects this, but it will probably be a long time before we see a lot of hybrids, or any electric cars on the road.

they are starting to use natural gas to power electrical generation plants instead of coal but i am sure the greens would prefer we use ben franklin's kite and string to generate electricty.

[Joe L.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

i wonder why as much effort is not put into natural gas powered cars as we now have found a great supply of it in the states ?? it could be dual fuel also as the natural gas company vans around here have 3 welding size cylinders of natural gas and they tell me they can go about 150 miles before switching back to gasoline.

clem------


I've wondered the same thing. Honda has had a natural gas powered Civic for quite some time but they produce very few of them and they have been very hard to find. However, I think Honda is now going to greatly expand availability and promote these cars.

Dual fuel does not work too well. We converted some of our vehicles in the city to dual fuel and they just never worked out very well. The engine really needs to be optimized for natural gas which includes a very high compression ratio. You can't vary compression ratio when you switch from one fuel to the other.

One of the big drawbacks to natural gas is the amount of space required for the cylinders to provide the vehicle with even a modest range. However, there are usually enough CNG filling stations around that one does not really have to worry too much about getting the fuel when needed. And, it's fairly quick and easy to refuel.

Many powerplants in the country are converting to natural gas and most of the new ones being built use natural gas, at least here in California. So, if we're going to use natural gas to fuel the powerplants to generate the electricity for electric cars, why not just use the natural gas to power the cars in the first place and eliminate the power losses in transmitting and distributing the electrical power?

[Clem Z.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

clem------


I've wondered the same thing. Honda has had a natural gas powered Civic for quite some time but they produce very few of them and they have been very hard to find. However, I think Honda is now going to greatly expand availability and promote these cars.

Dual fuel does not work too well. We converted some of our vehicles in the city to dual fuel and they just never worked out very well. The engine really needs to be optimized for natural gas which includes a very high compression ratio. You can't vary compression ratio when you switch from one fuel to the other.

One of the big drawbacks to natural gas is the amount of space required for the cylinders to provide the vehicle with even a modest range. However, there are usually enough CNG filling stations around that one does not really have to worry too much about getting the fuel when needed. And, it's fairly quick and easy to refuel.

Many powerplants in the country are converting to natural gas and most of the new ones being built use natural gas, at least here in California. So, if we're going to use natural gas to fuel the powerplants to generate the electricity for electric cars, why not just use the natural gas to power the cars in the first place and eliminate the power losses in transmitting and distributing the electrical power?

i am sure they can come up with a movable dome in the combustion chamber to change the CR for the dual fuels

[Terry M.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

i wonder why as much effort is not put into natural gas powered cars as we now have found a great supply of it in the states ?? it could be dual fuel also as the natural gas company vans around here have 3 welding size cylinders of natural gas and they tell me they can go about 150 miles before switching back to gasoline.

Back 5 to 10 years ago there were more CNG vehicles around. Large fleets were required to have a certain number of them. The college I teach at had/has the only alt fuels program in the state, and we did a fairly large number of conversions of cars and trucks. We trained fleet employees in refueling, troubleshooting and maintaining the CNG vehicles. The requirements must have changed because we don't see so many CNG vehicles anymore.

The CNG fuel station we have at school requires some time to refuel a vehicle -- in terms of hours. It cost (a decade ago) several thousand dollars and then has to be installed. Commercial CNG refueling stations use a cascade of tanks and can refuel a vehicle more swiftly, but I doubt it compares with refueling a gasoline vehicle.

Now days not even the local gas utility sends their employees for training as they used to, although it is possible they have moved their training in-house. It seemed that it made a lot of sense/cents for the gas utility to use CNG for their vehicles so long as they come back to the yard and don't go home with the employees.

[Adam S.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

Me & my Dad back in early 1980's made hi-milage VAPOR carbs. Man did them things work! My Dads friend had a Cad-a -lack Diville 500+ cubi V8, The latest version made at that time was an elecrtic heator style (wrapped nicad wire around SS tube stuck inside the air cleaner centered over carb. with 100 amp alt. w/dule batteries set up from olds diesal cars) When hi milage carb was turned on at interstate speed He got 60+ mpg on hwy at 65 mph. NO S#hT! Now the only problem is only good for constant load & speed not for city use! Strickly trial & era untill he found the ideal orfice to get that speed.... It was an old WW2 design by Mr. Ploug for the gas powered tanks. It does work, probably not today with injection with complex computer map designs, this will work on C1 & C2 vettes BUT lets just say fuel in pure vapor form is very volital!

[Paul J.]

Re: Volt and future gas milage standards

Back 5 to 10 years ago there were more CNG vehicles around. Large fleets were required to have a certain number of them. The college I teach at had/has the only alt fuels program in the state, and we did a fairly large number of conversions of cars and trucks. We trained fleet employees in refueling, troubleshooting and maintaining the CNG vehicles. The requirements must have changed because we don't see so many CNG vehicles anymore.

The CNG fuel station we have at school requires some time to refuel a vehicle -- in terms of hours. It cost (a decade ago) several thousand dollars and then has to be installed. Commercial CNG refueling stations use a cascade of tanks and can refuel a vehicle more swiftly, but I doubt it compares with refueling a gasoline vehicle.

Now days not even the local gas utility sends their employees for training as they used to, although it is possible they have moved their training in-house. It seemed that it made a lot of sense/cents for the gas utility to use CNG for their vehicles so long as they come back to the yard and don't go home with the employees.

Terry, I think you just confirmed what I've been told, that you have to be trained to "pump" CNG. This takes self serve out of the picture. 15 years ago we had two Crown Vics converted to CNG. These were in the motor pool for anyone to use, but no one would sign them out because there were only a couple of refueling stations and you had to find someone to refill it. And most importantly, there was the fear of running out of fuel.

CNG is popular right now because of the cost, due to the availability. It costs in my area about $1.79 for a gallon equivalent ( I don't don't know about energy content), but there may be additional fees because you have to use an attendant. The stations cost about $7,500 and almost all of them are municipal or utility owned and not intended for the general public (although they will fill your truck or car). Nationwide, there are about 1000 of these stations.

In many places CNG vehicles were traditionally used for fleets, mostly in urban areas and usually because of pollution. My belief is that the EPA will dictate fleet use of CNG in the future, as they continue to lower the ozone ambient standard. This is already an option for municipalities with air quality problems.

Paul