L78 Questions

[James W.]

Re: L78 Questions

Hapy New Year guys!

Thanks again to all who have replied to my questions. I'm still looking for input to my second question related to whether the '65 JG is in fact correct regarding wheather the flywheel inspection cover bolts are to be recessed hex head bolts or slotted pan head screws? I've heard they are to be a slotted pan head screw.

Also, anyone want to comment on my question regarding the sealer at the gap between the starter nose and the inspection cover as seen in the '65 AIM? Would this be for both SB's and BB's? The JG mentions nothing about the sealer being present.


Thanks,

James

[Wayne M.]

Re: L78 Questions

..... Is your opinion that the small block production inspection covers were also natural rather than semi gloss black? As for the orange paint on the inspection cover, would you expect that it would not be fully painted orange? ...

Happy New Year to you, as well, Tony

I'm pretty sure that the supplier of these inspection covers was the same for both Flint and Tonawanda (same 403 bellhousing), and that they were bare metal, as delivered to the engine plants.

As to paint coverage, neither of my '65s have the original covers, so I'd have to speculate that since there's about an inch of space between the rear of the oil pan and the inspection cover, and assuming that the oil pan was the primary paint target, that the cover would get it by default.

Unlike the sparse paint coverage behind the water pump (on the timing cover) or on the side of the (big) block, behind the exhaust manifolds.

Using the same speculative logic since neither the starter or the oil filter were installed when painted at the engine plant, my guess is that the outboard edges of the bare steel cover were painted to avoid early rusting, and therefore show a more direct pain "hit" than high on the cover or oil pan, in the crank area.

Here's a thought -- did engine plant paint the passenger side clutch inspection cover without plugging the hole for the starter nose ? If so, you'd expect to see localized orange overspray on the front face of the flywheel.

[Joe L.]

Re: L78 Questions

Happy New Year to you, as well, Tony




If so, you'd expect to see localized orange overspray on the front face of the flywheel.

Wayne-----


There often is.

[Joe L.]

Re: L78 Questions

Hapy New Year guys!

Thanks again to all who have replied to my questions. I'm still looking for input to my second question related to whether the '65 JG is in fact correct regarding wheather the flywheel inspection cover bolts are to be recessed hex head bolts or slotted pan head screws? I've heard they are to be a slotted pan head screw.

Also, anyone want to comment on my question regarding the sealer at the gap between the starter nose and the inspection cover as seen in the '65 AIM? Would this be for both SB's and BB's? The JG mentions nothing about the sealer being present.


Thanks,

James

James------


The sealer was applied at St. Louis and was used for big blocks and small blocks. It probably would have been used for medium blocks, too, but they never made any.

Was the sealer infallibly applied to every single car? I don't know.

[William C.]

Re: L78 Questions

James, a quick look at Noland's book shows some in-the-plant engine shots that sure look like hex head bolts on the cover.

[Tony S.]

Re: L78 Questions

Thanks Wayne. I appreciate it.

I wrestle with the question of "how much" orange paint should be expected on the inspection cover. Back in the day, the inspection covers were installed prior to paint, so there's going to be SOME orange paint on them. Now, the restored cars that I've seen tend to have inspection covers that are entirely painted orange because they were painted before they were installed on the 403 bellhousing. Since 'finish' is one of the five components of judgment (cdcif), I'm interested in knowing how much orange paint to expect (realizing that the engine painting process was not entirely standardized due to human factors).

On my 396 car, the inspection cover was missing when I bought the car.

I just don't think that the inspection cover should be entirely painted orange.

I always appreciate your input. Thanks.

Tony

[Michael H.]

Re: L78 Questions

I just don't think that the inspection cover should be entirely painted orange.



Tony

Tony,

You are absolutely correct. Most original shields show normal orange paint coverage on the outboard sides but bare or just a light mist coat on the center just behind the oil pan sump area. In fact, the rear vertical portion of the oil pan usually showed the same very light mist coat of orange. Some had areas with zero paint.

[Michael H.]

Re: L78 Questions

Joe,

How do we know that both Flint and Tonawanda used the same source for orange paint in the mid/late 60's? We don't, and that may be a good reason why the colors are not the same.

About 35 years ago, this question came up at Classic motors. At that time, there were several VERY low mileage cars parked almost side by side to compare one to another. One was the well known untouched 1500 mile green 65 FI conv., another was the untouched 3400 mile maroon 396 conv., plus several others.
There was a definite and very obvious difference in color between the Flint and Tonawanda engine colors.

In the later 70's, Burroughs, Joe Ray and I got involved in this again and all agreed that the Flint/Tonawanda colors were definitely not the same.

It might make sense that the two plants did not purchase paint from the same source as GM did not actually make these paints. If that's the case, and I think it probably is, it's unlikely that both colors would be the same.

Even the GM engine orange paint in quart cans from that era are off color.

[Joe L.]

Re: L78 Questions

Joe,

How do we know that both Flint and Tonawanda used the same source for orange paint in the mid/late 60's? We don't, and that may be a good reason why the colors are not the same.

About 35 years ago, this question came up at Classic motors. At that time, there were several VERY low mileage cars parked almost side by side to compare one to another. One was the well known untouched 1500 mile green 65 FI conv., another was the untouched 3400 mile maroon 396 conv., plus several others.
There was a definite and very obvious difference in color between the Flint and Tonawanda engine colors.

In the later 70's, Burroughs, Joe Ray and I got involved in this again and all agreed that the Flint/Tonawanda colors were definitely not the same.

It might make sense that the two plants did not purchase paint from the same source as GM did not actually make these paints. If that's the case, and I think it probably is, it's unlikely that both colors would be the same.

Even the GM engine orange paint in quart cans from that era are off color.

Michael-----


I think the paints used by Flint and Tonawanda definitely were not the same. I think the original flywheel cover pictured by Wayne was most likely off of a small block. That is the color I recollect from small blocks of the period-----more red than orange. Big blocks of the period used a paint that was more orange than red. Still, though, it had more red in it than most of the "Chevrolet orange" paints available today or, even, in the past, including any that I ever got from a GM-branded can.

[Wayne M.]

Re: L78 Questions

Also, I can discern absolutely no difference between a GM #3788422 version which has the clips and the GM #354497. There must be a difference but I sure can't tell what it is.

Joe -- good discussion on all these variations on both 12_3/4 and 14 inch flywheel inspection covers.
These shots from a current item on eBay; a service 3788422 with the clips (same parts sticker as on mine, which has no clips -- someone has written 354497 on the sticker). Seller limits his application description to Hi Perf big blocks, ignoring the far greater small block installations. He wants $300., so no rush .

BTW, ever notice that whenever there's an in-depth discussion of an item on this board, subsequently you'll see similar parts popping up on eBay (there's been several covers in the last few days).

[Joe L.]

Re: L78 Questions

Joe -- good discussion on all these variations on both 12_3/4 and 14 inch flywheel inspection covers.
These shots from a current item on eBay; a service 3788422 with the clips (same parts sticker as on mine, which has no clips -- someone has written 354497 on the sticker). Seller limits his application description to Hi Perf big blocks, ignoring the far greater small block installations. He wants $300., so no rush .

BTW, ever notice that whenever there's an in-depth discussion of an item on this board, subsequently you'll see similar parts popping up on eBay (there's been several covers in the last few days).

Wayne------


That parts label is a very old label. However, I really do not think this style 3788422 cover (i.e. with the clips) was ever used in PRODUCTION, at least for any Corvette. The last widespread use of the 3788422 cover for Corvettes was the 1968 model year when it was used for all small blocks as well as L-88. I don't think any used the cover with the clips. From 1969-72 it was used only for L-88 and ZR-1 (maximum total of 169 cars less any L-88's with M-40). After 1972 it was not used, at all, for Corvettes. I don't think that any 1969-72 PRODUCTION covers had the clips but I would not absolutely rule it out for maybe 71-72.

[Rick B.]

Re: L78 Questions

Guys to the question of the inspection cover bolts. Indented hex with an E headmark.........but what type of lock washer on those? Square external tooth?

I have heard different things

[Jody B.]

Re: L78 Questions

This is a picture of the disassembled parts when I replaced the clutch. There was no evidence of the clutch ever being replaced. Notice the inspection cover and it was held in place by very old looking pan-head bolts.

IMG_0624.JPG

[Rick B.]

Re: L78 Questions

Jody, thanks for the pictures, very interesting indeed. Couple of questions

Pan Head slotted screws or Indented Hex bolts? if Bolts what headmark?

What was the associated washer ? Its been reported flat lock washers with the hex heads and some have seen external tooth star washers with the pan heads?

[Ronald L.]

Re: L78 Questions

Joe & Michael, commenting on the color of the paint, you will notice from un molested cars, pics posted here, that the color is yellow orange for the early big blocks.