Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC paint?

[Donald H.]

I know the paint issue and judging has been discussed at length, and I have done searches but can't find the answer to my question below. I'm assuming that any base coat/clear coat paint job will automatically get 50% Originality deduct. Per the 8th Edition Judging guide "Deduct 50% for Originality - The body paint appears to have been refinished with a material not consistent with factory application but the appearance is consistent with factory application methods."

My painter will be spraying my 1960 in the next two weeks. He is using base coat/clear coat, but says he can give it an appearance with laquer characteristics, i.e. orange peel and unbuffed door jambs and lower body areas. However, to make the paint look "perfect" later I will have to pay to have it wet sanded and buffed again to get rid of the orange peel, etc. If it is likely that I will loose the whole 85 points for a clear coat/base coat paint job, then I will probably not take the car through judging. Yes, I know the the 85 points is less that 2% of the total, but I have problems with my engine pad that I think will take some significant hits that I can't fix without basically replacing the engine.

Has anyone had a car judged at Regional or National with base coat/clear cost that only got th 50% deduct for originality?

Thanks,

Don

[Michael W.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Don- the short answer is that many cars have been judged at Chapter, Regional and National level while sporting a BC/CC finish and got NO deduct, never mind suffering a 50% deduct. It's all what the paint appears to be, not what a chemical analysis would indicate it to be.

[Dick W.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

If the jambs, hood ledges, etc are consistant with the appearance of lacquer, and the rest of the car was buffed, most likely you would take the 20% (I think that is the standard deduction) for over restoration.

Disclaimer, I am not an expert, and I danged sure did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night

[Donald H.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Thanks, what has me worried is that I worked as an OJ on the Mechanical team in Kissimmee and was talking to a guy whose 59 has laquer, but he got 22 point hit for over restoration, basically buffed out to good. I talked to another guy (not at Kissimmee) who said he got a full deduct (85 points) for his 63 split window.

Sure would be helpful to find someone who has been through regional or nation with no more than 50% Originality hit. I'd like to know what they did, if anything when their car was painted.

[Michael W.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Under/over restored can happen just as easily with any type of paint, not just BC/CC. Your painter has to understand exactly what kind of finish YOU want.

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Donald,
My '69 is painted with BC/CC and received a 9 point (out of 45) for originality, and 4 for condition in the Body Paint section at the Novi national last summer. It also took a 17 point hit out of 85 for Body Color with the note "Shade too dark". Hope this helps.
Jeff

[Donald H.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Donald,
My '69 is painted with BC/CC and received a 9 point (out of 45) for originality, and 4 for condition in the Body Paint section at the Novi national last summer. It also took a 17 point hit out of 85 for Body Color with the note "Shade too dark". Hope this helps.
Jeff

Yes, that help a lot. Do you know if your painter did anything special? By that I mean, did he not buff as much as he normally would, or spray the clear differently.

[Dick W.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Donald, you need to search for a thread on paint that Tom Ames replied to. He explained the process of painting, step by step

[Dale M.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

We had a paint judging school last January and here is the chart I received from this school.

1. Does the Body Paint Material appear to be the Factory applied Material?
If YES, Then - Is the Appearance cosistent with Factory Application Methods (dull at the bottom, etc)
If YES to this question, then Decuct 0%
If NO, (Over/Under Restored or Paint on trim or weatherstripping) - deduct 20%

2. If NO to 1 above, If the appearance consisttent with Factory Application Methods? (Observe Door Jams, Hood Ledge, Trunk Area
If YES - deduct 50%
If NO - deduct 100%
I hope this is clear, I could not get my picture of the flow chart to upload.

[Donald H.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Donald, you need to search for a thread on paint that Tom Ames replied to. He explained the process of painting, step by step

Thanks, I do have the Tom Ames information and it is good. What I am really trying to find out though is what (if anything) was done differently during the paint process for a BC/CC car that has been successful in minimal point loss during judging, e.g. Jeffrey 69 above. Or

I'm probably asking for something that isn't easy to answer. My painter does have techniques to replicate the unbuffed door jambs, etc. using flattners. He can also introduce some orange peel in the clear. I'm just trying to avoid paying for extra work and still loosing all the points

[Patrick H.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Thanks, I do have the Tom Ames information and it is good. What I am really trying to find out though is what (if anything) was done differently during the paint process for a BC/CC car that has been successful in minimal point loss during judging, e.g. Jeffrey 69 above. Or

I'm probably asking for something that isn't easy to answer. My painter does have techniques to replicate the unbuffed door jambs, etc. using flattners. He can also introduce some orange peel in the clear. I'm just trying to avoid paying for extra work and still loosing all the points

I know of a Duntov car that lost minimal points for being "over restored" who used BC/CC for paint. He had the painter backtape all the jams and use flattener in the clear. He did not buff the lower areas of the car, and they attempted to get the orange peel in that area appear like lacquer. He also did use some clear semi-gloss (?) Krylon on a few lower areas to cut down the gloss. In the end I think he lost 8 points total on his paint and color.

FYI, he did spend time having the painter work up a color formula to match his original paint, and that really helped.

Patrick

[Donald H.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

I know of a Duntov car that lost minimal points for being "over restored" who used BC/CC for paint. He had the painter backtape all the jams and use flattener in the clear. He did not buff the lower areas of the car, and they attempted to get the orange peel in that area appear like lacquer. He also did use some clear semi-gloss (?) Krylon on a few lower areas to cut down the gloss. In the end I think he lost 8 points total on his paint and color.

FYI, he did spend time having the painter work up a color formula to match his original paint, and that really helped.


Patrick

Thanks Patrick,

This is the kind of information I was really looking for. A good case where someone used BC/CC and did some "work" to make it look more like the original factory application.

I'm sending on to my painter and will discuss with him my options this week.

[Tony S.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

I know of two C2's judged at Regionals. Both were painted BC/CC. The first car received no originality deduction, and the second received a 9 point deduct (20% originality for "over-restored" appearance). A skilled and informed painter can make BC/CC look like lacquer. I would say that the goal is easier to achieve with a solid paint vs. a metal flake paint.

If the exterior judge is following the matrix correctly, doors, hood and gas lid should not be examined unless the judge decides from the exterior view a full deduct on originality is appropriate. If the exterior qualifies for the 20 percent over restoration deduction, no doors should be opened to examine for "duller" areas. Doors, hood and gas lid should be opened in order to restore half of the originality points so that the paint will qualify for condition points (i.e. 23 of the 45 originality points are won back).

Hope that helps.
Tony

[Patrick H.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

Thanks Patrick,

This is the kind of information I was really looking for. A good case where someone used BC/CC and did some "work" to make it look more like the original factory application.

I'm sending on to my painter and will discuss with him my options this week.

Also, be sure you remove/sand down/try not to get the build up of material at the edges. Seeing the typical "hump" of BC/CC at the edge of a panel is a surefire way to get "caught."

[Tom A.]

Re: Paint questions again - has anyone only got 50% originality deduct with BC/CC pai

As a exterior judge I tend to look for what things appear correct to start with, such as does the finish have an indistinct image (normally associated with a degree of small orange peal), do areas that could or were not buffed appear as unbuffed lacquer, is the paint coverage on lower panels weak or incomplete, are all edges flat without a build up, are all of the edges on items installed after paint clear of any paint residue. After looking for these items I determine what I don't see of these then determine how much it affects the overall look. The presence or absence of just a little if it doesn't greatly affect the overall look doesn't mean it justifies the maximum deduction. Remember the manual says "obvious use of" that means it stands out. If you will look for what's right then determine how what you see affects the overall appearance you will be able to come to much fairer judgements. Looking from a positive attitude to start with gives a much better result in the end. I know not all judges use this method but all of the really good ones do. Will you always get a good one? Not necessarily but as you move from chapter event to regional event to National event you will find that the expertise of the judges increases. If you will do your research and get your painter to understand what you want to start with getting a correct appearance from a urethane single stage or clear coat is not that difficult. You would be surprised at the number of cars at every event score 100% on paint with c/c finishes. It will really help if you will seek out examples of original unrestored cars and let your painter look at them. He will have a much clearer idea of what you want than he will with just explanation.