Engine pad numbers missing

[Bruce D.]

I bought a 63 327/340 that needs to have the engine pad numbers stamped on a blank block. It has the correct casting numbers and casting dates. The 2nd previous owner had the engine rebuilt and has a detail rebuild invoice that includes a line item for $200 to have the block decked. Based on what I read from Roy's article on this last year, the restamping is a valid NCRS action if it is not trying to present the car as something different than what it was originally.

I need advice and guidance about how to go about this and understand the range of activities to balance against cost for the options.

thanks in advance for your help.....

[Gene M.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Bruce
Without the broach marks any stamping is hot sail boat fuel. Just leave it as it is and enjoy the car.

[Bruce D.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Gene. What is hot sail boat fuel and what does that have to do with engine numbers?

There are 3 judging lines for engine numbers and broach marks for a total of 85 points. Why would you suggest doing nothing?

[Michael H.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

i sent you a pm.

[Donald H.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

I to am interested in Gene's comment. I'm still a Newbie and trying to learn the judging process. If Bruce plans to have his car judged, then would he not lose all pad points? 38 for the broach marks being gone, 25 for the VIN derivative, and another 25 for the assembly stamp, or total of 88 points?

Gene, are you saying that with missing broach marks, you will automatically lose the VIN and Assembly points?

If he has someone with the ability to stamp the VIN and Assembly restamp them, couldn't he gain back the 50 points? Per the 8th Edition Judging Guide (Restore: "To renew; to put back into existence or bring back to a former or original state.") An example of acceptable restoration in the guide is "Stamping a 435-HP block to conform to the date/serial numbe of the original 435-HP Corvette in wich it is to be installed"

I realize that the configuration of the stampings and fonts have to be correct, but unless I am reading the Guide incorrectly, it would seem that restored VIN and Assembly stampings would be acceptable for judging and he could gain back the 50 points.

What am I missing?

[Terry M.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Gene is saying, if I may put words in his mouth, is regardless how well the stamps are done, if the machining marks are indicative of machine shop resurfacing the stamps have to be non-OEM. To use a well worn phrase: You can not put toothpaste back into the tube.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

"You can not put toothpaste back in the tube"

But you can put broach marks back on a block...

[Donald H.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Still no answer to my specific question. If the broach marks are wrong, but correct stamp configuration, do you lose 38 points for the broach marks, or all 85 points? In other words, if the assembly and vin stamping are correct do you lose that 50 points with bad broach marks?

In other words, are the three areas judged independently, Broach Marks, VIN Stamp, Assembly Stamp or do the Broach Marks have to be correct before you get any points for the stampings?

[Harry S.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

The answer is in the current version 8 of the Judging Reference Manual. Mine is not handy, can someone look up the answer and post it. As I recall the three line items are not connected.

We must remember, when the broach machine was getting to the end of life very few if any broach marks were left on a new pad. So it is possible to have an untouched engine where broach marks are not visible.

[Donald H.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

The answer is in the current version 8 of the Judging Reference Manual. Mine is not handy, can someone look up the answer and post it. As I recall the three line items are not connected.

We must remember, when the broach machine was getting to the end of life very few if any broach marks were left on a new pad. So it is possible to have an untouched engine where broach marks are not visible.

As I said, I'm a Newbie and trying to learn. Harry's comments are how I read the 8th Edition of the Judging Ref Manual. If I understand it correctly the VIN and Assembly stampings are judged independently and actually listed before judging of the broach marks. It reads:

A. and B - are the block casting and casting date - If either of these is wrong, the pad is not judged.

C. If A & B are judged to be correct, judge for appropriate, normally configured engine plant stamping and engine assembly date or serial number and alpha prefix or suffix code which matches car as listed in the appropriate judging guide. (See note *)

The engine pad is assigned 50 originality points: 1953 through mid-1960, if engine plant stamping is judged incorrect, deduct 50 points. Mid-1960 & later if VIN derivative is judged incorrect, deduct 25 points; if engine assembly date suffix code is judged incorrect, deduct 25 points. (see note*

Judge D regardless of scoring on C (C is the VIN derivative and assembly stamp)

D. Judge for absence of paint, dirt, rust or other condition which obscures engine pad and presence of of normal factory production machining marks. If either is judged negatively, deduct 38 points.

*Note: Each of the above listed items must be scored as full credit or full deduction; no partial duductions are allowed.


Again, just trying to lean as much as I can. All very intersting. I don't know how judging has been done in the past, and how past Judging Ref Manuals read, but it seems to me the 8th Edition and NCRS is trying to give the Judges more objective tools and and eliminate some subjective judging. E.g. CDCIF and Standard Deductions helps me, as a owner who plans to have my car judges, a head start in my restoration.

[Dick W.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

As I said, I'm a Newbie and trying to learn. Harry's comments are how I read the 8th Edition of the Judging Ref Manual. If I understand it correctly the VIN and Assembly stampings are judged independently and actually listed before judging of the broach marks. It reads:

A. and B - are the block casting and casting date - If either of these is wrong, the pad is not judged.

C. If A & B are judged to be correct, judge for appropriate, normally configured engine plant stamping and engine assembly date or serial number and alpha prefix or suffix code which matches car as listed in the appropriate judging guide. (See note *)

The engine pad is assigned 50 originality points: 1953 through mid-1960, if engine plant stamping is judged incorrect, deduct 50 points. Mid-1960 & later if VIN derivative is judged incorrect, deduct 25 points; if engine assembly date suffix code is judged incorrect, deduct 25 points. (see note*

Judge D regardless of scoring on C (C is the VIN derivative and assembly stamp)

D. Judge for absence of paint, dirt, rust or other condition which obscures engine pad and presence of of normal factory production machining marks. If either is judged negatively, deduct 38 points.

*Note: Each of the above listed items must be scored as full credit or full deduction; no partial duductions are allowed.


Again, just trying to lean as much as I can. All very intersting. I don't know how judging has been done in the past, and how past Judging Ref Manuals read, but it seems to me the 8th Edition and NCRS is trying to give the Judges more objective tools and and eliminate some subjective judging. E.g. CDCIF and Standard Deductions helps me, as a owner who plans to have my car judges, a head start in my restoration.

Bingo, you have a winner! Surface is judged AFTER the numbers.

[Michael W.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

The judging of the pad surface requires that it must be typical of factory production- not whether there are clear distinct broach marks present. As Harry points out not all blocks had them.

The VIN derivative, engine machine code and pad surface are each judged independently and without regard to the others. An engine with a blank never-stamped pad still retaining it's original features from the GM engine assembly plant should receive the 38 points allocated to it.

[Michael J.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

I have a block that has the correct casting date for my car's build date (got all 175 points), and Hi-Perf block casting number and case configuration (got all 350 points), but the engine code assembly stamping and VIN stamped on the block are not original (though they "match"), as it is not the original block, so I lost all 88 points, including stamp pad finish since it was judged as being restamped. That is how I understand it works every time. I assume if the block is unstamped it is the same same.

[John H.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

A blank pad on a decked block will get the same deduction (88 points) as a (detected) non-typical restamp/rebroach.

[Gene M.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Gene is saying, if I may put words in his mouth, is regardless how well the stamps are done, if the machining marks are indicative of machine shop resurfacing the stamps have to be non-OEM. To use a well worn phrase: You can not put toothpaste back into the tube.

That's it exactly. Understand originally the build #'s and the vin derivative number were stamped on the engine sometime after the deck was machined (hence broach marks). So if the machine marks are not viewed to be original then by all reasonable understanding the stamping numbers cannot be real neither. This is an "art of illusion" by many to make the pad and it's markings "appear original" to attain a maximum of points (maybe other reasons too). Note I did not use the word "deception" because that is a no no.

PS sail boat fuel is air