Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

[Eric F.]

[Donald H.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

I have the same issue with my 1960. I just can't see spending another $900+ for an original jack given how much I've spent on the restoration so far. The score sheet list 15 originality and 10 condition points for the Jack, and 6 and 6 for the handle. That's 0.8% of the total 4,500 points. Or another way of looking at it is, at $1,000 the 37 points will cost you $27 per point. In my case, that just doesn't seem like money well spent.

What I don't know is if you use a repro, what is the judging hit. If it isn't the full points, then the cost per point is even greater.

Just my opinion.

[Michael W.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

I'm not familiar with the repros but if it's 'close' it might get a 5 point deduct on originality- maximum. There should be no deduction for condtion. That means an orignal would be at least $200 per point assuming it also takes no condition deducts. If it's in 'meh' shape, it might get a 5 point deduct for that, so no net gain.

[Tom P.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

Just to throw this in as an added comment.
Does EVERYONE here know that the early 50s (and probably late 40s) Chevy pickups came with the EXACT same jack????????
For MANY years I've pointed out that MANY parts for a Corvette were also common to other Chevys, and also other GM cars (Olds, Pont, etc). By using some ingenuity and if you're a good scrounger, you can frequently buy a "Chevy" part that was also used on a Corvette at a substantially lower cost. The jack for example--------------I would NEVER look for a jack for an early Corvette-----------I'd be looking for one for an early 50s pickup. Oh ya, and there were MANY, MANY more early Chevy pickups made than there were early Corvettes!!!
To this day I just do not understand why everyone is sooooooooooo obsessed with paying the big bucks for a "genuine" Corvette part, instead of searching around for a MUCH CHEAPER Chevy pass car part that is the EXACT SAME part????????

Now, how do I know about the commonality between pickup and Vette jacks? Because I bought my jack from the ORIGINAL owner of a 53 pickup for $10.

[John S.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

on my 55 i lost 3 points with a reproduction jack and jack handle. i also lost a point on the lug wrench because it did not have a "spoon end". i have a unrestored original jack in another car, but i knew i would get higher deduction if i used it. for 3 points i rather use the reproduction jack and leave the original jack unrestored. i lost more points in my trunk area by not slopping the glues on my weatherstripping and jack decal then i lost for the reproduction jack.

[Eric F.]

originality has lost out to the appearance of originality.

Thanks again to everyone that took the time to assist me.

[Michael W.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

I don’t quite understand how or why the judging process has evolved to this level but I find it discouraging. I’m not placing blame on any one person or organization; I just find it sad that originality has lost out to the appearance of originality.

Erik- appearance of originality has always been the standard, nothing new. All other things being equal- an original part will always score better than a repro that's got some deviation. If there's no deviations, how would a person know it's a repro?

[Chris S.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

My question is....
what are the differences between an orig and a repro?
Is there an article about this topic or thread

[Eric F.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

Michael,

I agree that all things being equal an original part will outscore a repro. What I don't agree with is a repro ever outscoring an original part. I beleive if the hobby continues in this manner the entire core of original corvettes (or any make/models) is destined to collapse in favor what looks best at the time of judging. The folllowing quote comes from the NCRS.ORG Awards page. "The NCRS has compiled and is constantly updating highly detailed judging standards and rules for each basic model division from 1953 through 1996. The guidelines in these NCRS Technical Information Manuals are recognized throughout the hobby as THE STANDARD in determining originality."

The standard in determining originality says it all for me. Lets be honest with ourselves, something can be original only once and reproductions are forever. If we don't ALWAYS give preference to originality then eventually the two will mesh and the historical significance of originalty will be lost forever. Unfortunately the hunt for the award seems to be more important than the stewardship each of us is responsible for upholding when participating in a judging event based on thestandardof originality. I understand the reassons for using repro parts but again.... I don't think a repro should ever be awarded more points than an original part. JMHO

Again, thanks to everyone who shared their opinions and experiences. I enjoy this discussion board cause I learn something new every day.

Eric

[John S.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

Erik- appearance of originality has always been the standard, nothing new. All other things being equal- an original part will always score better than a repro that's got some deviation. If there's no deviations, how would a person know it's a repro?

how many condition points would i lose on 50+ year old jack and handle if i left it unrestored in it's slightly rusty, paint scraped and aged state? i think it is safe to say it would have been more than the 3 points i lost with the reproduction jack and handle. a 50 year old item would certainly not appear original to me if it did not show signs of aging. the more signs of aging the more points deducted due to condition. as for the judging process, i think it adds to cars that are found to be unrestored and still manage to obtain a top flight. i have no problems with the judging process and appreciate all the knowledge i gained from having the car judged.

[Michael W.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

Michael,

I agree that all things being equal an original part will outscore a repro. What I don't agree with is a repro ever outscoring an original part.

This could only happen if the condition of the original causes it to lose more points than the originality deduct for the repro. The judging sheets will clearly indicate this. Keeping in mind we're discussing Flight Judging and not Star/Bowtie, would such a deduction on the original jack not encourage the owner to simply restore it to get NO deduct? This is something the repro jack could never achieve. I think the judging system and points allocation system is just fine the way it is.

[John S.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

This could only happen if the condition of the original causes it to lose more points than the originality deduct for the repro. The judging sheets will clearly indicate this. Keeping in mind we're discussing Flight Judging and not Star/Bowtie, would such a deduction on the original jack not encourage the owner to simply restore it to get NO deduct? This is something the repro jack could never achieve. I think the judging system and points allocation system is just fine the way it is.

repro parts are constantly modified to get maximum points. some judges will go right to the base and look for the offsets in the base. knowing that it would not be hard to machine in the offsets and with a little work repaint that area to give it a cast appearance.

[Gerry P.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

In reference to Tom Parson's post above, I recently came upon a large junk yard in Mitchell SD which had several old 48-53 Chevy pickups (and many acres of other old vehicles). My hopes were high that I could at last find an original jack for my '57. To my dismay, I had trouble finding jacks in any of them. I have to admit, I wasn't sure where to look but think I finally figured out they were in the corner behind the driver, next to the gas tank. At least that is where I found a couple. The two I did find were a screw type instead of the scissor style found in corvettes. Assuming Tom's observations are correct, I'm wondering if the corvette jacks were used only in certain sizes of Chev pickups. Also, below is an excerpt from the 1929- 57 Chev parts book which indicates there were two "axle" jacks used on Commercial or Utility vehicles. Note, the date range for the lighter duty goes back to 1929, the other to 1942. I'm not sure which might be correct for the corvette as it is not specifically mentioned. Also, if anyone knows where the jack was stowed in the early pickups (if not behind the driver), let me know as I am going to back in Mitchell this week end and may go searching again.Chev Jacks.jpg
Gerry

[Clark K.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

how many condition points would i lose on 50+ year old jack and handle if i left it unrestored in it's slightly rusty, paint scraped and aged state? i think it is safe to say it would have been more than the 3 points i lost with the reproduction jack and handle. a 50 year old item would certainly not appear original to me if it did not show signs of aging. the more signs of aging the more points deducted due to condition. as for the judging process, i think it adds to cars that are found to be unrestored and still manage to obtain a top flight. i have no problems with the judging process and appreciate all the knowledge i gained from having the car judged.

I agree with John's statements, above. I would like to add that there is a point with any item on a Flight-judged car when the owner must decide whether deterioration has reached a point where restoration is necessary to achieve the minimum NCRS condition point deductions.

I have heard NCRS judges "wax poetic" about the patina on a washer motor or deduct originality points for a brand new washer bottle because it was not "yellowed with age". I would like to remind everyone who cherishes aged, tarnished, and/or rusty original parts that NCRS judges cars as they were when they left the factory. No Corvette left the factory with anything but brand new parts. With that written, I am in total agreement that any repro part MUST conform to the factory originals in every detail.

I would also like to remind everyone that the third word in NCRS is "restorer's", as in restoration. The trick is, obviously, to restore the car to its original factory appearance and performance.
-Clark

[Chris S.]

Re: Top Flight using original or reproduction 54 tire jack?

My question is....
what are the differences between an orig and a repro?
Is there an article about this topic or thread

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