Rag joint bolt on 68

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

In the photo on the AMK website, the bolt does not look to me like it's black phosphate. When you add the bolt to the shopping cart, the description is:

"(II) 3/8-24 X 1 3/16 FLNG BOLT 12PT, PHOS/PATCH. 1 pk"

Could the "PHOS" in this description be other than black phosphate?

Gary

Gary-----


The AMK bolt is available in two different finishes. Under the part number I mentioned, the bolt finish is coded "S2". This decodes to "phosphate and oil (gray-black)"

Under a different number, the same bolt has a finish coded "S60". "S60" decodes to "phosphate and red pigment". I don't think a bolt with the red pigment was used on Corvettes.

[Rich G.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

I ordered the bolt from willcox and am waiting. In the meantime, since I am impatient and live about 30 miles from Long Island Corvette, I drove there yesterday. I bought their version, which is threaded all the way up and the head needs a 3/8 12 point socket. I noticed the other bolt that is still in the car on the steering box side of the rag joint has a head that needs a 7/16 12 point socket. I'll see what version shows up from willcox.

I also noticed on my 66 the steering shaft has a flat on one side, but the 68 has splines all around. The 68 is a much more original car than the 66, so another interesting observation.

I never knew there was so much to know about one bolt :-)

Rich

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

I ordered the bolt from willcox and am waiting. In the meantime, since I am impatient and live about 30 miles from Long Island Corvette, I drove there yesterday. I bought their version, which is threaded all the way up and the head needs a 3/8 12 point socket. I noticed the other bolt that is still in the car on the steering box side of the rag joint has a head that needs a 7/16 12 point socket. I'll see what version shows up from willcox.

I also noticed on my 66 the steering shaft has a flat on one side, but the 68 has splines all around. The 68 is a much more original car than the 66, so another interesting observation.

I never knew there was so much to know about one bolt :-)

Rich

Rich-----


If you're talking about the input (worm) shaft on the steering box, if it has a flat on it, then it's a late 1969-82 steering box. The strange thing is I don't know how you'd get a 63-66 coupler (rag joint) on a L69-82 steering box.

[Rich G.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Joe, sorry I was not clear in that post. I was talking about the shaft that is on the input to the rag joint, or the one that is connected to the steering wheel. My 66 has a flat on that shaft. The 68 appears not to have a flat. I don't know if that is normal or if the 66 has later parts on it. The 66 is closer to "Frankenstein" and the 68 is pretty original.

Rich

[Jim S.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Rich,
From my research, the correct pinch bolt was designed at Saginaw back in 1957. It never was threaded up to the head. There always was a full shank 0.372 diameter that extended 0.60 length from under the bolt head to the threads. Also, the head was always a 7/16, 12 point. Not something smaller.

Joe,
An earlier (pre-1969) flange with a 3/4 full round serration will assemble to a gear input shaft with a flat (post mid-1969) as long as the spline count is correct between the two parts. The flat was added as an assembly aid (parts will only go together one way) and also as a redundant safety feature. (Even if the flange was loose and the serrations (splines) were wiped out, you would still have the matched flats that would provide considerable warning that things were loose. You couldn't suddenly just skip over the splines and lose steering ability.

Jim

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Rich,
From my research, the correct pinch bolt was designed at Saginaw back in 1957. It never was threaded up to the head. There always was a full shank 0.372 diameter that extended 0.60 length from under the bolt head to the threads. Also, the head was always a 7/16, 12 point. Not something smaller.

Joe,
An earlier (pre-1969) flange with a 3/4 full round serration will assemble to a gear input shaft with a flat (post mid-1969) as long as the spline count is correct between the two parts. The flat was added as an assembly aid (parts will only go together one way) and also as a redundant safety feature. (Even if the flange was loose and the serrations (splines) were wiped out, you would still have the matched flats that would provide considerable warning that things were loose. You couldn't suddenly just skip over the splines and lose steering ability.

Jim

Jim------

My recollection is that I tried once to install the L69-82 coupler (with flat) on a 63-E69 style worm shaft (full round) and it would not install. It's been a long time, though, so my memory might be faulty.

[Jim S.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Joe,
That is correct. You cannot install a flange with a flat onto an earlier full round (pre-1969) input shaft. You can assemble one way but not the other.
Jim

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Joe,
That is correct. You cannot install a flange with a flat onto an earlier full round (pre-1969) input shaft. You can assemble one way but not the other.
Jim

Jim-----


So, a L69-82 steering box could be used to replace any 1963-E69 application?

[Rich G.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Jim

I was pretty sure the LI part wasn't correct, but it fits and at least I'm safe for a while. I'm hoping the Willcox part will be ok. It should be here in a few days.

Rich

[Jim S.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

I have the actual worm (input) shaft drawing (7808317) with the flat that has a drawing date of Sept 1968. It calls out a 3/4 shaft with 30 serrations and a flat. Earlier in my notes I have called out, 63-69 3/4 shaft w/36 full splines thru late Sept 1969 (1969 model year extended to Dev 69). So if the spline count is indeed different between a flat and no flat, the parts should not assemble.

[Scott S.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Jim and Joe,

Some of the 12-point pinch bolts offered by the vendors for the steering coupler have the upper portion of the shank unthreaded, while others are threaded the entire length.

I have read comments on the TDB about one of the purposes of unthreaded shanks (probably from each of you, and John Hinckley) being greater resistance to shearing forces, if I remember correctly. Is there any reason for concern about using a bolt that is threaded the entire length for the steering coupler / rag joint application?

[Jim S.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Saginaw placed a lot of emphasis on the steering connections being absolutely as safe as practical. If the pinch bolt is tightened to spec (30 ft-lbs) it should NEVER loosen and come off. The safety factor that was designed into the connection was "what if the connection looks tight" but actually isn't torqued. Well then the flange on the gear or the flange on the steering column still can't backoff because as long as the pinch bolt is in place the solid shank of the pinch bolt still can't pass out of the notch in its respective shaft. Even if you didn't check the bolt torque, at least you could visually verify that the bolt was in place.

I witnessed many, many spin tests and torque tests on our flange and coupling assemblies. In ultra severe laboratory testing the rubber disc would wear out, the stop pins would wear through, but I would never see an actual flange to worm shaft or flange to steering column shaft connection fail. I saw many flexible couplings come back from taxi cab and police car fleets. There was never more than a light polish on the stop pins after 50,000 or 100,000 miles of use.


With the old steering column directly connected to the steering gear (rear steer Corvettes, B, X, and gen I F-cars) the worst thing you could do is misalign the steering column to the steering gear. Then you could force abnomal wear on the flexible coupling because the column was misaligned to the gear more than the clearances built into the stop pins to column flange connection. Only then would you see that the column flange was actually "sawing" through the stop pins.

This is an actual flexible coupling out of a Corvette where the column and gear were badly misaligned for years and years.

So much for steering connection and flexible coupling design 101.
Jim

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

I have the actual worm (input) shaft drawing (7808317) with the flat that has a drawing date of Sept 1968. It calls out a 3/4 shaft with 30 serrations and a flat. Earlier in my notes I have called out, 63-69 3/4 shaft w/36 full splines thru late Sept 1969 (1969 model year extended to Dev 69). So if the spline count is indeed different between a flat and no flat, the parts should not assemble.

Jim------


About 20+ years ago I replaced the steering box in my 1969 (built mid-September, 1969 and with the 63-E69 worm shaft) with a new L69-82 steering box. In order to do it I had to use the L69-82 coupling. I believe the L69-82 steering box can be used for any 67+ Corvette IF the L69-82 coupling is also used. However, I don't think the L69-82 box can be used in 63-66 Corvettes because there is no available coupling that will work.

GM never cataloged the L69-82 steering box to SERVICE anything other than L69-82. However, as I mentioned, it can be used for 67-E69 if the L69-82 coupling is also used.

By the way, there's nothing one can do to make a car steer and feel like new than installing a NEW steering box. Nothing.

[Joe L.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

Jim and Joe,

Some of the 12-point pinch bolts offered by the vendors for the steering coupler have the upper portion of the shank unthreaded, while others are threaded the entire length.

I have read comments on the TDB about one of the purposes of unthreaded shanks (probably from each of you, and John Hinckley) being greater resistance to shearing forces, if I remember correctly. Is there any reason for concern about using a bolt that is threaded the entire length for the steering coupler / rag joint application?

Scott------


Why not just obtain one of the AMK bolts which appear PERFECT to me?

[Jim S.]

Re: Rag joint bolt on 68

I am not so sure that a recent manufactured "new" steering box is going to feel as good as an original OEM box. I would recommend a rebuilt box by Gary Ramadei (NCRS 14833) as your best bet in obtaining a gear box as good or better than OEM.
Jim