Ethanol

[Dick W.]

Re: Ethanol

I add a bottle of Techron at every oil change (3,500 miles) in my road car. Use straight gasoline in the Vette.

[Jim D.]

Re: Ethanol

Many of us have knowingly been using E10 fuels for 20, some 30 years without issue. Many more have unknowingly been using it for the same period, again without issue. Morris- what problems have you been experiencing?

I agree. I've been running E-10 for about 30 years. Never had a single problem related to it.

[Steven B.]

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol

Morris,
alcohol.
Higher octane causes a slower burn rate of the fuel. This has the effect of promoting a longer and controlled burn of the air-fuel mixture during the combustion stroke resulting in pressure on the piston through more of its downward travel. This translates into more work being done per the volume of fuel. That is why higher octane fuels tend to give better gas mileage. Gasolines with lower octane ratings tend to burn more quickly resulting in more of a shock to the piston from the top of its travel and less pressure during its downward journey. .

Common misconception. I'll be talking about this in San Diego - the difference between normal and abnormal (detonation) combustion, which is not sustainable without possible engine damage.

As far as octane ratings are concerned, one has to convert current PON, (R + M)/2, to RON that was used in the sixties. You have to add about 5 so:

87 PON ~ 91 RON
93 PON ~ 98 RON

These are within the range of typical RON ratings for sixties vintage leaded regular and leaded premium.

Most OE Corvette engines don't have as high a compression as advertised, most don't detonate on modern unleaded gasoline, and most don't suffer corrosion damage due to ethanol.

The biggest problem is vapor lock or flooding due to hot soak percolation, but these problems were certainly not unknown in the sixties.

You guys are obsessing way too much over ethanol. Also, everytime someone has a fuel system problem there's a knee-jerk reaction to blame it on ethanol without any hard evidence to support that conclusion.

Duke

[Morris R.]

Re: Ethanol

Thank you duke

[Joe R.]

Re: Ethanol

Morris,

There's also a "Pure Gas" iphone app.

Joe

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethanol

Morris,
I have also tried Torco Accelerator. It is not inexpensive but if you have a compression ratio of over 10.5 to 1, you do not have to add much to boost octane to about 95.

In addition to what Duke has said about the need for higher than pump octane and associated myths- the Torco site has charts that indicate how much of their product to add per tank. To boost a tankful of 93 AKI to 95 AKI would add about another $10 to the total cost. I see what you mean about 'not cheap'.

[John H.]

Re: Ethanol

If you notice where many of the "pure gasoline" sites are, they are located near by water for the boating crowd. There is a reason for this. Again, I have had issues with deterioration of the insides of fuel lines and superfine sand-like residue deposits after gasoline has evaporated from the carburetor. I have also found this residue in the fuel pump of an infrequently used 1965 car that I have. Started with a perfectly clean gas tank and all new hard and soft lines along with a brand new pump. Friend in Fla. has found the same stuff down there.

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol

Many boat fuel tanks are made from fiberglass, as are the larger Corvette fuel tanks. Ethanol will attack fiberglass over time (although I don't know how the new underground plastic tanks survive) as many boaters and large tank Corvette owners have found out. Thus the alcohol free gas for boaters.

The lower BTU content of ethanol causes me to wonder at the logic (I understand Richard Nixon's EPA does not have to follow logic) of adding a product to gasoline that in the end causes one to burn more gasoline to get from point A to point B. I understand why the oil companies would support this. And I can understand why farmers and alcohol producers would support such a system, but what about everyone else? Do we not understand we are burning more fuel in the name of clean air? It just seems to me burning less fuel would help the air and the economy, but WTFDIK.

[John D.]

Re: Ethanol

"The Evils of Ethanol" is the title of one of my seminars on wonderful ethanol. Now my pal FI Art absolutely loves ethanol as his phone rings several times a day with FI owners complaining of serious leaks. Most attributoed to ethanol it seems.
S
helf life of ethanol is about 4 months and then it goes down hill quickly.
Story: Last fall my son bought a gas powered weed wacker from Lowes. Directions said don't use any fuel older than 4 months. But as the story goes the weed wacker sat in the cold shed alll winter long and in the spring it would not start. True story.

Fi Art sells more FI drive cables in the spring than the rest of the year. Must not be from ethanol though as some of you think it's good stuff.
It's only going to get worse gang so hang in there.
JD

[Jim D.]

Re: Ethanol

Another "The sky is falling" advocate. People are having problems with 50 year old F.I. units? Be serious. Maybe it's global warming and not ethanol. Like I said, I've been running it for 30 years and never had a problem, nor has anyone I know. We all heard the same B.S. when lead was removed from gasoline.

[Joe L.]

Re: Ethanol

Many boat fuel tanks are made from fiberglass, as are the larger Corvette fuel tanks. Ethanol will attack fiberglass over time (although I don't know how the new underground plastic tanks survive) as many boaters and large tank Corvette owners have found out. Thus the alcohol free gas for boaters.

The lower BTU content of ethanol causes me to wonder at the logic (I understand Richard Nixon's EPA does not have to follow logic) of adding a product to gasoline that in the end causes one to burn more gasoline to get from point A to point B. I understand why the oil companies would support this. And I can understand why farmers and alcohol producers would support such a system, but what about everyone else? Do we not understand we are burning more fuel in the name of clean air? It just seems to me burning less fuel would help the air and the economy, but WTFDIK.

Terry-----


Gasoline also attacks fiberglass over time. In fact, I would expect gasoline to be more of a problem in causing the deterioration of fiberglass than ethanol.

[Dick W.]

Re: Ethanol

Many boat fuel tanks are made from fiberglass, as are the larger Corvette fuel tanks. Ethanol will attack fiberglass over time (although I don't know how the new underground plastic tanks survive) as many boaters and large tank Corvette owners have found out. Thus the alcohol free gas for boaters.

The lower BTU content of ethanol causes me to wonder at the logic (I understand Richard Nixon's EPA does not have to follow logic) of adding a product to gasoline that in the end causes one to burn more gasoline to get from point A to point B. I understand why the oil companies would support this. And I can understand why farmers and alcohol producers would support such a system, but what about everyone else? Do we not understand we are burning more fuel in the name of clean air? It just seems to me burning less fuel would help the air and the economy, but WTFDIK.

Bing!!!! If you figure in the costs to manufacture ethanol, the added cost of transportation via rail or truck vs pipeline, the reduced fuel economy, two plus two equals about three. Then again no one has ever told EPA that anything had to compute. They are the ultimate authority

[Joe L.]

Re: Ethanol

All------


A few other notes:

When MTBE was used as the oxygenate of choice for most fuels (oil companies liked this one because it was made from oil) we heard all sorts of tales of problems associated with it. I never experienced a single one. In fact, I always thought that MTBE was a great oxygenate.

I've been using ethanol-formulated gasoline here in California for a long time. I'd prefer MTBE but, of course, it's nowhere to be found. So far, I've not experienced a single problem associated with the ethanol blended fuel used in any of my cars.

Fuel system corrosion induced by ethanol? Well, the scavengers used in days-gone-by leaded gasoline (and still used in leaded aviation gasoline) were a lot more corrosive than ethanol blended gasoline. Nobody seemed to complain about them, though.

The only possible problem I see with ethanol blended fuels is that it might cause some slightly accelerated deterioration of older elastomeric compounds used in fuel systems. However, install a current manufacture fuel pump (or, one rebuilt with modern elastomeric components), install new rubber fuel line sections, and a carburetor kit with modern elastomeric components and your fuel system should be pretty much good for as long as you're going to need it. All of these things are normal maintenance items anyway and certainly won't "break the bank".

[Domenic T.]

Re: Ethanol

Steven,
I learned what you said while getting schooled and certified as a aircraft mechanic as well as when I was a auto mechanic.

I think it was champion Spark plugs that demonstrated the burn rate difference by using 2 looong glass tubes and adding a splash of low octane in one tube and high in the other then ignited both at the same time.
Of coarse the low octane VISABLY hit the target first and the slower burning high octane lagged behind. This test is not believed by the fuel experts on the forum as champion must not be credible.

I saw the damage to pistons caused by using low octane in a engine that was timed for high octane (your hammer theory) in school and they addressed the even push on the piston vs the harder push (bang) that the low octane did.

GIVE it up as I was called a pea brain amongst other names for sharing anything that proved how correct your post is.

One other thing that is not understood by some here is the weight of the explosion on the piston along with the pressure differences in the cylinder that different fuels create. I think the pressure is somewhere between 1600 PSI & 2000 PSI.

Reading what the gasoline manufacture people say is about as true as what our politicians tell us. Some oil companies were involved in class action lawsuits and bought many aircraft engines, some were related to oil and some octane.

DOM