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  • Doug L.
    Expired
    • March 14, 2010
    • 442

    No steps forward and 3 back.

    I drove my '64 to the garage today. I have had 2 problems, a) The car pulls hard to the left when braking, and b) I changed the differential ratio to 3.36 but forgot to change the driven speedometer gear to match.

    My brake backing plates have no slot to access the adjuster. Everything else is new from "Muscle Car Brakes", their "matrix ceramic shoes, drums, cylinders, springs, etc. I initially adjusted them manually until I could hear/feel the shoes rubbing against the drums. When I re-checked today with the car on a lift I didn't find anything I felt worth changing. I did bleed the brake system again and got a small amount of air from the right front cylinder. I thought that might account for the pull but when finished it still pulls hard left. Any suggestions?

    I bought a new driven gear from LIC. After dropping the exhaust system and removing the rear motor mount (with the transmission supported by a jack) I was able to access the speedo cable connection to the transmission. I removed the (new) cable and the retainer clip and pried the gear housing from the tailshaft. Unfortunately the old driven gear did not come out with the housing. After trying to fish it out for 3 hours I finally gave up. I figure the metal gears are harder than the plastic speedo driven gear, so hopefully I won't have a problem with it floating around inside the tail shaft. I inserted the new driven gear into the back end of the gear housing (i.e. The large gear went into the tailshaft first), carefully inserted the housing with driven gear installed into the tailshaft and attached the retainer and the speedo cable. Once everything was back together I drove the car and had no speedometer indication at all. I don't really understand what holds the driven gear in its housing unless it is held in position by the driving gear inside the tail shaft. Since the old driven gear fell out of its housing on disassembly, I'm wondering if the new one also fell out and into the tailshaft when I installed the speedometer cable. The shop manual is no help and I don't have a spare transmission to examine.

    When I started the engine this morning there was a loud bang followed by blue / gray smoke from the right exhaust. The smoke cleared after a few seconds and the car drove normally on the way to the garage. After the work described above I started it again and this time there was no "bang" but there was even more smoke, again from only the right exhaust. There seems to be some antifreeze / water drops on the right exhaust extension, so I'm now thinking that either a head gasket or the intake maniflod gasket blew and water is being sucked into the combustion chambers. I hate to think of removing the new FI unit but think that is the only way to locate the problem. Any thoughts?

    Thanks, Doug
  • Paul J.
    Expired
    • September 9, 2008
    • 2091

    #2
    Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

    Sounds like a tough day. Pulls hard left and you think everything is OK? Then it's your right front brake hose. It is collapsing under braking. Just change all of them or at least both of the front and that should fix it.

    As for the bang, I hope it wasn't hydraulic lock. This is bad, very, very bad.

    Paul

    Comment

    • Wayne M.
      Expired
      • March 1, 1980
      • 6414

      #3
      Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

      Originally posted by Doug Loeffler (51544)
      ..... and b) I changed the differential ratio to 3.36 but forgot to change the driven speedometer gear to match.

      I bought a new driven gear from LIC. After dropping the exhaust system and removing the rear motor mount (with the transmission supported by a jack) I was able to access the speedo cable connection to the transmission. I removed the (new) cable and the retainer clip and pried the gear housing from the tailshaft. Unfortunately the old driven gear did not come out with the housing. After trying to fish it out for 3 hours I finally gave up. I figure the metal gears are harder than the plastic speedo driven gear, so hopefully I won't have a problem with it floating around inside the tail shaft. I inserted the new driven gear into the back end of the gear housing (i.e. The large gear went into the tailshaft first), carefully inserted the housing with driven gear installed into the tailshaft and attached the retainer and the speedo cable. Once everything was back together I drove the car and had no speedometer indication at all. I don't really understand what holds the driven gear in its housing unless it is held in position by the driving gear inside the tail shaft. Since the old driven gear fell out of its housing on disassembly, I'm wondering if the new one also fell out and into the tailshaft when I installed the speedometer cable. The shop manual is no help and I don't have a spare transmission to examine.
      Doug --- if I were you, I'd go back to bed; must be a bad dream. Not sure I understand all of your 2nd paragraph on the speedo gears, but here's some pics on a '65-up "584" tailhousing, that shows how the plastic driven gear is held in place inside the housing -- there's a machined surface that the end of the plastic gear turns against (ie. not held in position by the drive gear). The "429" '64 tailhousing should be similar (although speedo bullet located on the driver side vs. passenger).
      This is the 24-tooth yellow driven gear #3860347, factory set-up for 4.11 diff. gears.

      What was your rear gear ratio, prior to going to 3.36's. There are three different speedo drive gears (on the output shaft), depending on final drive ratio.
      Attached Files

      Comment

      • Dan H.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • July 31, 1977
        • 1365

        #4
        Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

        Originally posted by Paul Jordan (49474)
        Sounds like a tough day. Pulls hard left and you think everything is OK? Then it's your right front brake hose. It is collapsing under braking. Just change all of them or at least both of the front and that should fix it.

        As for the bang, I hope it wasn't hydraulic lock. This is bad, very, very bad.

        Paul
        Doug, Paul is right!! Did your FI guy install a fuel shutoff valve on your unit supply line to the spider? Had to put one on my 64, started way too fast when cold and a little puff of smoke etc. Now it's cranks a few turns then starts, no smoke etc. Bangs are not good. Have two beers and call me in the morning!
        Dan
        1964 Red FI Coupe, DUNTOV '09
        Drove the 64 over 5000 miles to three Regionals and the San Jose National, one dust storm and 40 lbs of bugs!

        Comment

        • Doug L.
          Expired
          • March 14, 2010
          • 442

          #5
          Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

          Thanks for the comments guys. I never would have suspected the brake hose to be the problem. All 4 are new and from the same source. I'll have to check receipts to see who they came from but I believe it was CSSB. I guess if it turns out that one is defective I should replace all of them. Any suggestions for quality brake lines?

          Wayne, thanks for the photos. It would appear from the second photo that the original driven gear should not have fallen into the tailshaft when I tried to remove it, but it did. The silver holder came out and the gear dropped into the tailshaft. I guess I'm going to have to go under the car and remove the speedo cable again to see what happened. The diff was originally 4.11. I'm now sorry I changed it. First gear in this transmission really requires a 4.11 or something close to that. It takes a lot of throttle and feathered clutch to get it moving from a standstill. I didn't have an opportunity to drive the car before starting the restoration. I thought I was doing the smart thing by changing to 3.36. The original driven gear that is still in the bottom of the tail shaft was sort of yellow. We used a fiberoptic camera to look through the hole in the case to see the gear. We just couldn't grab it with anything. The replacement gear is blue.

          As for the smoke, there wasn't a minor amount, there were big clouds of it. On the initial startup today it lasted ~15 seconds before it cleared. On the next start after doing the work it lasted 30 seconds and there was a lot more of it. But in both cases the engine ran fine after the smoke dissapated. At first I thought it was oil but I think I could smell antifreeze. I guess I have to pull it apart. I'm wondering if there will be signs internally to confirm what went bad.

          Comment

          • Gary R.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • April 1, 1989
            • 1796

            #6
            Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

            Doug
            Sorry to see you're having problems, I know how much time you put into that car. That's odd about the speedo gear they usually come out with the "bullit".

            I'm far from an Rochester Fuel mechanic but I thought there was a limit switch on the throttle for by-passing during start up? I was speaking with a local guy I built a box for yesterday in fact about his 64 fuel coupe and he mentioned it to me. Again I'm sure there are far more experienced FI guys here then me, I've never owned one myself.

            Any time you want change out those 336's let me know and I'll get it setup for you again. 373 or 411 with the CR trans is probably what you want, although I remember from when I was a kid and my older brothers best friend had a white/red 64 fuel vert and he swapped in a 308 diff because he broke the 411's. I don't recall him saying much other then the car ran great once it got rolling and wasn't into 3rd gear getting on the highway! He sold the whole fuel set up for $75 about 35 years ago!

            Comment

            • Paul J.
              Expired
              • September 9, 2008
              • 2091

              #7
              Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

              Doug, I did'nt pick up that the hoses are new. The chances of a new hose failing are very small. Let's look at what you've got. Do you feel the car pulling through the steering wheel? If so, then we know that either the the right front wheel cylinder is not getting enough pressure, or there is a lot of air in the RF line, or the shoes are very contaminated. The last two are least probable and are easy to fix, by bleeding the system (which you already did once) and by making some hard stops to see if it gets better by "cleaning" the pads with heat. Before you mess with the hoses, take both front wheels off and compare the action of the shoes when the pedal is depressed. Do the pistons and springs function correctly? No binding or eccentric movement? Remove the dust caps and look for seepage. Check the connections to the hose, cylinder, and bleeder. If everything works fine and looks fine then replace the right front hose with a known good one.

              If you can't feel the car definitively pulling through the steering wheel then the problem could be at the right rear. The lesser rear braking capacity means that you normally would'nt get very much pull, but you need to check it if the aforementioned stuff does'nt reveal anything.

              Paul

              Comment

              • Edward J.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • September 15, 2008
                • 6940

                #8
                Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                Doug, Try taking a inside dia. measurment of the front drums you purchased. If you have a machine shop close by they can do it for you.I have seen that alot of venders use the stuff made in China,If there is a difference in the diameters this may cause one shoe the reach the drum before the other, even thought the shoes are draging. the brakes apply from the top and reach drum at the same time. If during there machining process the diameters change to much you'll have a pull.

                If the drums check out Keep in mind its all hyd. pressure and foot movement creates the wheel cylinders to apply equally.so air in the system, brake shoe adjustement not correct will alter the timing.

                Doug, Anti freeze in the cylinder will cause the engine to misfire on that cylinder on start and go away after a few seconds and run okay. A way to check for this is start engine and shut down immediatly. then pull the plugs and that side that smokes and look for signs of anti freeze on electrodes.

                There are two drive gears for the munices I believe, if your car had a 370 or higher ratio, you will have to change out the drive gear. Whats happening is the smaller driven your useing to correct the speedometer is not reaching the drive gear now.
                New England chapter member, 63 Convert. 327/340- Chapter/Regional/national Top Flight, 72 coupe- chapter and regional Top Flight.

                Comment

                • Larry M.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • January 1, 1992
                  • 2688

                  #9
                  Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                  Originally posted by Edward Johnson (49497)
                  Anti freeze in the cylinder will cause the engine to misfire on that cylinder on start and go away after a few seconds and run okay. A way to check for this is start engine and shut down immediatly. then pull the plugs and that side that smokes and look for signs of anti freeze on electrodes.

                  Or, pull all the plugs after the engine sits for a day and check for liquid in the bores. A boroscope can help in this search. If you can't get/borrow one, slowly rotate the engine over by hand and check the bores every 90 degrees rotation.....or briefly bump the starter a few times for similar results.

                  Any liquid/coolant should be obvious.

                  Larry

                  Comment

                  • Roger P.
                    Expired
                    • February 25, 2009
                    • 354

                    #10
                    Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                    Hi Doug,
                    I am sorry to hear about your brake and engine issues . You have done such an amazing job with your car that it must be very frustrating to experience this setback so close to the finish line. My fingers are crossed that both problems won't be anything major so you can get your baby judged and then enjoy cruising her on the road. If you need a hand with something to diagnose and/or fix the problems, I should be available for a few hours to help you on Saturday or Sunday morning. I would offer you more time, but my daughter returns from camp on Friday and I promised her that we would spend quality time together this weekend. Call me or send me an e-mail if I can help. Stay positive... it will get resolved and you'll be getting a Top Flight very soon!

                    Best regards,
                    Roger (50141)

                    Comment

                    • John D.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • December 1, 1979
                      • 5507

                      #11
                      Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                      Doug, If you engine runs fine after the smoke goes away then you did not bend a connecting rod aka hydraulic lockup. If you did bend a rod you engine would run like crap.
                      Take a compression reading on the cylinders. Are you running the original style hi-dome pistons? What head gasket are you using. Did the engine builder mill the head? Was the top of the block checked for flatness. Were the heads torqued probably?
                      Loud ban definitley not good. Did the FI unit flood at all?
                      How's you ignition coil?
                      Do you have the distributor shield on? Check to see if you cut a wire with it. Leave the shield off Doug.

                      Comment

                      • Peter H.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • April 1, 1980
                        • 223

                        #12
                        Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                        Doug the brake adjuster access is through oval knock outs that should be in the outer edge of the drums on the flat surface of the hub face...peter ...

                        Comment

                        • Doug L.
                          Expired
                          • March 14, 2010
                          • 442

                          #13
                          Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                          Hi Guys,
                          Thanks for all your inputs. Because I'm working multiple problems I'll have to take them one at a time. Since driving the car home I have not started it again. Once the engine cooled I checked the water level in the expansion tank. It is empty and was checked / confirmed at 1/2 full before I took the car to the shop on Monday. Some of it boiled out on the drive home. I could see the trail of water up the driveway and onto the garage floor. The puddle stopped below the overflow hose. I'm sort of convinced now that I have a blown head gasket, or a blown FI adaptor gasket, or a cracked cylinder head. When the engine was torn down for rebuild it had a bent rod. Unfortunately I have no record or recollection of which cylinder that rod was in. Anyway I'm thinking that water is getting into a cylinder and it is the antifreeze that is burning off and making the smoke. I think if it was oil the smoke would not disappear.

                          So my plan is to pull the plugs and exhaust manifold on the right bank, disconnect the coil wire and engage the starter to see if I can detect any moisture in one of the cylinders or on one of the plugs. If that fails I can borrow a fiberoptic camera and have a look through the plug holes. Following that I have to pull the FI unit and the right cylinder head. I imagine I'll have the head magnafluxed to check for a crack, just to confirm or eliminate that possibility.

                          Paul, its funny you should ask about feeling the pull in the steering wheel. Now that I think about it, I don't think I did. The car goes hard left but the wheel stays netural and it almost seemed that it moved a little to the right. Maybe it's my imagination or I am moving it right to compensate for the pull. I'll have to test that theory but won't be driving it until the engine problem is solved.

                          Ed, I'm trying to get my head around your comment about the speedo drive / driven gears. The shop manual shows one driven gear (the one I bought and installed). So does the LIC catalog. Since the old driven gear is now in the bottom of the tailshaft case and the new gear is installed (but not working) I can't compare the lengths of the two. Can someone steer me in the right direction to sort out the drive /driven gear situation?

                          To answer some questions:
                          -I used 2 each .020 composition head gaskets on each bank to slightly reduce the compression ratio.
                          -The Muscle Car Brake drums don't have an adjustor hole, but I will have the inside diameters checked after I solve the engine problem.
                          -All ignition shields are off the engine except the left spark plug shields.
                          -No flooding of the FI that I know of, although I thought about that when the initial bang occured. I don't know if I imediately turned the ignition switch to off or if the starter wouldn't trun the engine, but after the bang there was no rotation. I waited a few seconds and tried again. The solenoid clicked a few times then it turned over and fired imediately. Since the battery was fully charged I don't think the solenoid clicking was due to low voltage. That makes me think there was enough water in one of the combustion chambers to stop piston movement
                          -The engine ran OK twice after the problems, although a slight roughness when it overheated on the ~4 mile drive home.
                          -Coil is new NAPA unit. Have not installed the 092 coil yet.
                          -Heads were torqued
                          -Not certain about head & block milling. The stamp pad was preserved, I was insistent and paranoid about that, but I'll have to check on the rest. It was over 1 year ago and I am suffering from CRS.

                          Doug

                          Comment

                          • John D.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • December 1, 1979
                            • 5507

                            #14
                            Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                            Doug, Don't use the FI to intake (baseplate) gaskets over. Holler.
                            Intake to head gaskets. How was that fit. Any issues? When you have everything apart put the intake on the head with no gaskets. Check the fits. Do the intake to head bolts go thru the intake into the heads easily? Are they rubbing on one side big time?
                            Nothing in the FI unit-restored or unrestored is going to cause antifreeze to run out the pipes. Right guys???.
                            Keep this in mind. So we check the bottom of the plenum on a surface plate to insure it's flat. Then put a straight edge on the sides of the intake to make sure it's true. But sometimes that is not enough and a guy still has issues. Sometimes a head has a problem and the intake to head alignment is off. MEaning you have a gap between the intake and the head that a typical gasket is not going to solve.

                            Or maybe the intake is installed at a slight angle. Can't get the right words. Maybe the intake (baseplate) is put on but you still have a severe leak as the head ic "cocked" a tad.
                            Clem you can jump in at any time. JD

                            Comment

                            • Doug L.
                              Expired
                              • March 14, 2010
                              • 442

                              #15
                              Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

                              Hi John,
                              I was afraid you were going to tell me that about the gaskets. The gaskets and seals have the correct tabs. You directed me to our friend in FL for them. Don't know if he has more.

                              I don't recall any issues when I attached the baseplate to the heads. All the bolts aligned well enough that I didn't have to wiggle the base plate or pry anything.

                              I didn't have antifreeze running out the exhaust. There were clouds of "smoke" from the right exhaust twice. We did find a little residue on the tip of the right exhaust extension that we thought was antifreeze, probably from condensation of whatever the mist was. I also thought I smelled antifreeze as I backed the car through where the cloud dispursed. Those things plus the large loss of coolant from the overflow tank makes me think 'coolant in a cylinder'.

                              I'll come back to your post and suggestions once I get it apart. It will be interesting to see if I have water in the oil pan.

                              I read something on the TDB recently about a baffle that could be installed under the baseplate to keep hot oil from splashing on it. Do you know anything about that?
                              Doug

                              Comment

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