Previous Owners, win some, lose some

[Michael J.]

Back when I started my search for previous owners of my '67 L71, with the expert help of Bill Gould, I knew I had to be prepared for anything that might be found. I have previously posted on some of the bad, like finding out the original engine had been blown and replaced within the first six months of the original owners time with the car. But now I am, after talking to many of them, seeing the good. One previous owner had some items I might want, he said. Here they are in this picture. It includes, what appears to be, the original owners POP (all data match), the original plastic sleeve, the original owners manual, and a dealer emblem (sitting on the POP page here) from City Motors (Chevrolet) in Great Falls, Montana, the verified original dealer as per the NCRS Shipping record. I am wondering if anyone knows where the dealer emblem would have been placed on the car. It has been repainted at least 3 times over the last 45 years, and there is no sign of where it was. Also, has anyone put the dealer emblem back on your car, I'm wondering if I should to make it more "original". Thanks for any opinions, even on the items, I suspect they are the real deal, but of course many things could have happened in 45 years.

[Paul D.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

Michael, I would certainly hold on to that original dealer emblem and you could display it in some manner such as a frame or paperwork display, but I would not install it on the car. Original dealer or not, I think it will draw a points deduction in exterior. I know you are thinking that installation of such badges was considered "normal dealer prep" by most dealerships, but I think you will find most judges will take a deduction. I am not certain about dealership tag frames, as long as you provide the correct factory pieces for judging. Great that you were able to locate some history on your car. Most of our cars have some great stories to tell if we just take the time to search them out. Chip.

[Mike E.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

Nice find!…It’s funny you bring up the dealer emblem, when I ordered a new Corvette when I was 19 in 1976 I insisted the dealer NOT install their emblem. I told them if they installed the decal the deal was off...It never got installed...In those days on a later C3 they installed it above the beltline in the center below the Corvette emblem on the rear bumper, it looked terrible. My understanding of the NCRS charter is your Corvette should be returned to the state it left the factory. Yet that is a bit conflicting, because the cars left the factory without being prepped so that might not be the case because cars left the factory without trim rings or hubcaps installed. Perhaps someone could clarify that?

At Bloomington this year there was a ’67 Coupe this was take very seriously it was not prepped the rallies were virgin with the paint perfect paint. The trim rings and caps in the rear compartment. It was kind of cool to see.

[Jimmy B.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

Michael,

I would look for that dealer emblem just inboard of the tail light panel or possily on the lh side of the rear deck panel. Jim

[Michael J.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

Thanks for the replies, I suspected there would be a judging problem to return the emblem to the car, I will look for the holes that have been filled though. Interesting about the standards of "as delivered" compared to "left the factory", never thought fully about that. When I was doing my '70 AAR 'Cuda for Mopar Nationals, that was "as dealer delivered", so the dealer license plate frames, window stickers about exhaust dealer prep, stickers of foglight aiming on the lights, even the front eyebrow spoilers, which were dealer installed and thus in a bag in the trunk as delivered, had to be like that. The 'Vettes are not quite the same.

[Terry M.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

The NCRS standards are NOT as Jim posted above. He, and I am sure many others, confuse NCRS and Bloomington Gold (NCCB) standards. Jim has posted what in essence is Bloomington Gold's standards. Not quite exactly, but close enough for a board that is not devoted to that organization.

NCRS judging standards are "Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance , and equipped at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes." From the NCRS Judging Reference Manual, 8th Edition, Page 1 -- of all places.

Burn that definition into your mind because it will answer a lot of questions like:
Why do NCRS judged cars have trim rings installed?
Why does NCRS NOT judge window stickers? (There are actually some other reasons for this policy, but this definition is the start of the reasons for that policy)
It will also answer many other questions that arise here as well, although perhaps not the original question that was asked.

[Michael J.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

Thanks Terry, that is fairly clear, but my question remains, would a dealer emblem installed on the tail section, as many were, be unacceptable under that definition? I have seen many dealers install their emblem and even license plate frames as prep for delivery to a purchaser. Some may have asked if you want them, as I and many others have said "no", and they weren't installed, but I suspect many were installed on unsold units ordered for dealer stock.

[Doug L.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance , and equipped at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes."

Michael,
It will be interesting to hear what Terry, or anyone else says in answer to your last question. It would seem to me that NCRS must have information to define the "then-current Chevrolet Dealer new car preparation" for any given year. The statement makes it sound as if GM had a policy that dealers were obligated to follow. If that is the case it should be defined so it can be followed for judging. It was and still is common for a dealer to install their badges and / or license plate frames (that would replace the factory frame that is mentioned in the 63-64 judging manual, for example). I've come up with a frame from the dealer that delivered my car in '64 but would be reluctant to mount that frame for judging.
Doug

[Terry M.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

I didn't post my personal experience earlier because I wanted to drive the NCRS flag in the ground about "the standard.' I though that more important than my experience. That said, let's move on.

I asked my selling dealer for the 1970 not to instal his logo on my car. His story was a porter did it anyway. I was faced with "Take it or leave it." Those were his exact words. I have it and it has his pot metal logo attached with two push pins to the lower valance between the rear bumper upright and the driver's side exhaust port. Over the years it has corroded like you would expect cheap pot metal to do. The only saving grace is that it is not in a highly visible location.

Since the car has not been restored it received more than a few point deductions for the paint (but generally not the fiberglass) over the years. I can not tell you that those paint deductions were for that logo. They should not have been IMO. I would take the position the deductions for the logo (if any) should be for the fiberglass, but I can see one arguing either position, and even perhaps both ways -- after all part of the paint is gone as well as part of the fiberglass. I do not believe you can make the case that ALL dealers applied their logo to the car as part of new car preparation, and at that some of the logos were adhesive and can/could be removed without damage to the car.

All that said my car is mostly (but not all) original paint so there were deductions there and I don't recall any of the judges citing that logo, but it may be what the lawyers call de minimis. That is it is so small in relation to the rest of it -- that it doesn't matter.

Although I don't routinely (actually never if I can help it) judge exterior I would think that just the logo being on the car would not amount to enough to take any deduction, but if it was all that a judge could find (very doubtful) it might be worth one point. That said, if I was in your position with it not now on the car I would not put it on the car. Keep it with the PoP and the rest of the car's documentation. When the car is passed on, give all that up to the new owner. We are only custodians of these cars for a short time. If all goes well, they will all outlive us. That is my 2 cents, but I hasten to add it is worth no more than anyone else's 2 cents.

[Terry M.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance , and equipped at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes."

Michael,
It will be interesting to hear what Terry, or anyone else says in answer to your last question. It would seem to me that NCRS must have information to define the "then-current Chevrolet Dealer new car preparation" for any given year. The statement makes it sound as if GM had a policy that dealers were obligated to follow. If that is the case it should be defined so it can be followed for judging. It was and still is common for a dealer to install their badges and / or license plate frames (that would replace the factory frame that is mentioned in the 63-64 judging manual, for example). I've come up with a frame from the dealer that delivered my car in '64 but would be reluctant to mount that frame for judging.
Doug

Actually there were (at least in the C3 era) new car preparation standards, but from what we have seen of virgin (well almost) cars those instructions were not always followed as closely as you guys want and dealers pretty much did what they wanted - mostly that can be translated into what is least expensive. Does NCRS have these standards? Not that I know of, but I don't know all that is in the archives. Do I have some? Yep. Do I intend to bring them out? Nope.

This debate does not rise to the level to codify those standards. At most you are talking about one or two points out of 4510. Please get some perspective. Now if Roy asked me to get them, I would -- but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that question or my response t it.

[Michael J.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

I didn't post my personal experience earlier because I wanted to drive the NCRS flag in the ground about "the standard.' I though that more important than my experience. That said, let's move on.

I asked my selling dealer for the 1970 not to instal his logo on my car. His story was a porter did it anyway. I was faced with "Take it or leave it." Those were his exact words. I have it and it has his pot metal logo attached with two push pins to the lower valance between the rear bumper upright and the driver's side exhaust port. Over the years it has corroded like you would expect cheap pot metal to do. The only saving grace is that it is not in a highly visible location.

Since the car has not been restored it received more than a few point deductions for the paint (but generally not the fiberglass) over the years. I can not tell you that those paint deductions were for that logo. They should not have been IMO. I would take the position the deductions for the logo (if any) should be for the fiberglass, but I can see one arguing either position, and even perhaps both ways -- after all part of the paint is gone as well as part of the fiberglass. I do not believe you can make the case that ALL dealers applied their logo to the car as part of new car preparation, and at that some of the logos were adhesive and can/could be removed without damage to the car.

All that said my car is mostly (but not all) original paint so there were deductions there and I don't recall any of the judges citing that logo, but it may be what the lawyers call de minimis. That is it is so small in relation to the rest of it -- that it doesn't matter.

Although I don't routinely (actually never if I can help it) judge exterior I would think that just the logo being on the car would not amount to enough to take any deduction, but if it was all that a judge could find (very doubtful) it might be worth one point. That said, if I was in your position with it not now on the car I would not put it on the car. Keep it with the PoP and the rest of the car's documentation. When the car is passed on, give all that up to the new owner. We are only custodians of these cars for a short time. If all goes well, they will all outlive us. That is my 2 cents, but I hasten to add it is worth no more than anyone else's 2 cents.

Thanks very much Terry, an excellent and very informative answer based on experience and the manual. And I would agree with your advice, passing my '67 (Claudette Corvette) on to my son when I get too old to work on her (he is very interested), I will just put that dealer emblem in the documentation book I have built.

[Michael F.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

since 1970 when I bought my first vette, and have only had 11 overall, I have NEVER seen one with a dealer sticker, bolted or decal on any corvette, not saying it didn't happen, but I never saw one.

[Michael J.]

Re: Previous Owners, win some, lose some

My 1970 LT1 had one on it (left rear inboard from the tail lights), as did my '81, both from Jimmy Green Chevrolet in Houston, Texas.