C5 Judging

[Reba W.]

Re: C5 Judging

Paul, as you know I am a C3 person. But I had to judge four C4s at a chapter meet and saw the issues the JGs. Fortunately, my judging partner was knowledgeable and pointed out several incorrect statements in the manuals. When I asked if the team leaders had been informed, the answer was that they are working on revisions. I agree that should be the empasis at this time.

Can you imagine a PV for a C5?

[Vinnie P.]

Re: C5 Judging

The thought about affordable cars, younger members and the C4 generation was tossed about before the C4s were admitted. I don't think it has worked at all.

Patrick

Doc Pat...Bingo we have a winner you are 100% correct and it hasn't enhanced the membership as originally thought...there was absolutely no significant increase in membership when the C4s were admitted for judging as originally thought...what was found was our membership had these cars, used them as drivers...most were low mileage garaged cars that were second or third Corvettes in addition to their C1 thru C3's which they had judged...So it was discussed in the board room and Roy had the statistics to prove that there was no significant increase/influx of younger members...in addition to all the good comments above about how hard it would be to judge these cars...when you look at it as a whole, it was decided to sit back and wait...Roy had the blessing of the board of directors in his decision...however, I do think the manuals have not been put on hold...but Roy might chime in to answer that question...

[Ken A.]

Re: C5 Judging

What many of you fail to realize is that an 84 has more parts than a 97 and took longer to build. Now i agree that writing a judging manual from scratch is a difficult task, but think it could be slowly developed, so as to not lose information that get's lost with "time & poor memory".

[Pat M.]

Re: C5 Judging

IIRC, NCRS was formed at least in part because the founding members wanted to include and judge newer Corvettes than CCC allowed. I for one hope NCRS can find a way to continue that inclusive philosophy for newer cars.

[Paul O.]

Re: C5 Judging

Ken

That would be the right thing to do is have a group of other members compile all the data on these cars so in the future if they are judged a judging guide could be assembled and written. You may need to set this up with Roy but as long as it is just for information gathering I would see no problem with doing that.

[Terry M.]

Re: C5 Judging

Writing a judging manual is to a great extend a chicken and the egg proposition. Without judging a group of cars, any group of cars, the access to examples is limited. Writing a manual with limited examples is difficult at best. Without throwing stones, I suspect this is where the C4 folks are at with their manual. I remember when it was where the early C3 folks were at one time. To say it is stressful on both the owners and judges is an understatement.

I recall the mid-1980s standing in an NCRS member's shop. He was installing ground effects on then new C4s for several area dealerships. We were having a "tune up night" and after the requisit lubrication several of us talked about writing a judgign manual for the C4s based on what we were seeing come through his shop. Of course in the sober light of day we didn't do that. We thought the days of judging C4s would never come. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Dave P.]

Re: C5 Judging

I want to say something about the C5 Judging Manuals. Some of the comments here appear to suggest that the development of such manuals is at the 'nothing has been started' point. Very wrong. Allen Tremain, the 84-89 NTL, and Chief Editor of all C4 JRM's has been working on the C5 Manual for quite some time. He's compiled a lot of material, and with his experience with the C4 manuals, has the methodology of developing a manual from scratch down pretty well. While input from trial judging, observing members' cars, etc is certainly vital, someone has to write the text, organize the book, select, crop, and index pictures and illustrations, etc. He's pretty far along, last I heard. Allen has done a fabulous job, with the C4 JRM series. There's 5 of them, and there's a reason the 90-up JRMs cost more that other JRM's: They're almost an inch thick, and are loaded with pics and illustrations. I've seen a lot of criticism regarding the accuracy of the C4 JRM's lately on the TDB. One person is responsible for producing these manuals. If you've never seen a 92-93, or the 94-96 JRM take a look at one next time you're at an event. Then you might want to whisper to yourself "glad I didn't have to write THAT".

Anyone that feels a C5 is more complex and more "difficult" to judge than a 94-96 C4 hasn't attempted to judge a 94-96. Anyone that argues that the C5 is too complex to 'learn' to judge, hasn't been taught, or learned to judge a 94-96. I'm a pretty good C4 Judge, and specialize in Ops at the Nationals because I can go through one thoroughly, but quickly, in the normally limited time available at Nats for Ops because the cars have to be loaded into the building. I don't know very much about the C5. (It's just never interested me). But I suspect a 96 has just as many things to check and verify as a 97-99, with perhaps a few aditional memory seat functions and trivia on the C5. There's LOTS of things we don't check either as part of Ops or PV on late C4's. The same would be true with C5's. Most C5 guys know that all the modules (PCM, BCC, ABS, etc) can be queried for DTC's through the DIC, using the Trip and Fuel Monitor buttons. Very few people, including most C4 Owners, realize that the same thing can be done in a 90-up C4. (NON ZR-1). We don't check this function in either Ops or PV. Just an example.

The take away should be that NCRS and the C4 Team is still developing the late C4's manuals and techniques. The C5 will be very similar, but with mostly new team members and enthusiasts. The C5 stuff will be an evolution from the C4. So I suppose Roy and the BoD decided that we're just not quite "there" yet. Which again, is a decision I agree with.

But it's not because nothing on the C5 manuals has happened. They are well along, last I heard.

[Frank E.]

Re: C5 Judging

Thanks Dave.... A few years ago I had offered to help with a JG for the 2004 CE Z06 but never got a response. I bought it new and still have all of the various stickers, paper, plastic wrap, etc that came with the car as delivered off the truck to the dealer. Over the past eight years, I've kept the car bone stock with the exception of a shorty antenna (still have the original), new tires and a CAGS. I keep the car pristine and regularly show it in the concours prepared class for NCCC. It does well and rarely scores less than a 98 out of a 100. All of the bar code tags are there along with all of the crayon markings on the under carriage and various driveline parts. I'd be more than willing to provide anything needed in pictures or other write ups that could assist in the creation of a JG. If the "team" is interested in my input, please let them know of my desire to help in the process.


Thanks..

[Dave P.]

Re: C5 Judging

Thanks Dave.... A few years ago I had offered to help with a JG for the 2004 CE Z06 but never got a response. ....... If the "team" is interested in my input, please let them know of my desire to help in the process.
Thanks..

Frank: You addressed this to me, so I'll respond with my personal POV. I am a member of the C4 Team. As far as I know, there is no 'official C5' team, and the C4 Team has not been charged with developing C5 manuals or techniques. When I last talked with Allen Tremain, the C4 and C5 Manual Coordinator about C5 manual status he indicated he was working on a 97-98 (maybe 99, but I don't recall) manual. He spent a LOT of time with Ralph Kleistads (sp) very low mileage 98 at the Tucson Regional conducting "research".

Input that an Original Owner / member such as yourself can contribute is invaluable in the development of manuals and knowledge. Because OO's know what has and has not been changed. Manual development is an evolutionary process. In C4, we've taken the preceding years' manual and rewritten the text, and change photos as appropriate for the next manual. We don't start from scratch, but update to the newer specs for the newer car. The special editions such as the 88 35th, 93 "Ruby", 95 Pace Car, 96 Collectors and Grand Sport require a lot of special attention, as there are a myriad of detail changes on these special models. Not to mention what happens when you get something like the ZR-1. (You thought I forgot the ZR-1, huh?). You get to the CE Z06, and that will be the same deal: Lots of detail differences, AND I suspect there will be a lot of the 2,025 CE Z06's presented for Judging, when accepted. This manual will be the last C5 manual to be developed. Your input will be welcomed and invaluable when the time comes. You most likely didn't hear back, because the 04 manual can't even be on the radar yet. Too many targets in front of it. Speaking as a peon, from an unofficial position, as that's the only one I have, I would suggest staying informed as to the development of the C5 program. After implementation, it will be apparent who the principals of the C5 Team are, and make your willingness to help with the 04 manual known. I'm sure you will be welcomed into the fray, when the time comes.

Regards,
Dave

[Dave P.]

Re: C5 Judging

I crack myself up. I just had a thought regarding this:

There's LOTS of things we don't check either as part of Ops or PV on late C4's. The same would be true with C5's.

A perfect example is the Supplemental Restraint System (Air Bags).

Can you imagine driving along on the 10 mile road test and the PV Judge says to you "OK. We have to check the air bags. Drive into that pole at 30 MPH"??? As nervous as some of our Owners have been during their PV, I wouldn't dare try this as a joke. They just might do it.

[Thomas W.]

Re: C5 Judging

IMO, the indefinite postponement of the inclusion of the C5 in NCRS Judging is a very wise decision. The oldest C5 is just too damn new. The NCRS high awards are diluted and diminished by giving them to "used cars". Even some of the C4 we DO judge are too new, IMO. I wonder how a midyear Duntov owner who's spent 100K on his restoration and achievement feels about a guy that buys a 96 of a car lot, washes and waxes it, and after entering a couple of events, gets the equivalent (97.0 or better) award? Adding the 250,000+ C5's over the next 4-5 years would really dilute the spirit of the NCRS restorations and preservation of the truly vintage and historically-significant Corvettes we already judge.

As far as C5's being "affordable" to younger entry-level members. So are C4's. There are plenty of sub-$10,000 "Insta-McClellan/Hill" C4's out there that with a wash and wax will get a 97.0. Certainly a Top Flight, first time out. C5's are too new, and there's too many of them. They would dilute the real impetuous of NCRS Awards: to add value to midyears and big block C3's.

If you want a "used car inspection" for a C5, take it to the local mechanic and have him check it out. That's what a "judging" of a 15 year old car amounts to. I'm glad the C5 is on hold. And probably should be until they're at least 20 years old, and the population of C5's has thinned a bit. A Hill Award should be "hard". Like a Duntov for a midyear is hard. Too many used C5's sitting on car lots are Hill Award as they are. That's not hard enough to be credible among recipients of other NCRS High Award owners with earlier cars.

[Gary C.]

Re: C5 Judging

hey guys - nobody's knocking anybody's car or awards and no one's car was singled out.

Thread closed.