How long does it take to damage an engine?

[Bob S.]

The oil filter canister on my '67 failed it's initial start leak test and dumped most of five quarts of fresh oil on the garage floor in seconds. The car started, oil pressure was normal and then dropped and I turned the engine off. I've taken the canister off and don't see any reason for the sudden leak, it appeared to be on tight, and the gasket wasn't torn or crimped. My current plan is to replace the canister with a spin-on kit and a PF-35, but I'm curious as to what the odds are of needing major engine work. Does anyone had a similar experience, and if so, how long was the engine running with low oil?

thanks,
Bob

[Dick W.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

If you are concerned, remove the oil pan and look at the #1 rod bearing. It is the last to receive oil and the first to be starved.

[Will B.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Dick is right - but if the engine was under no load, you should be fine, since you caught it right away.

[Patrick H.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

You should be fine as you acted quickly.

When you start an engine after it sits a long time (weeks) it takes a few seconds for oil pressure to get up anyway. I suspect your time from pressure drop to turning it off was less time than it takes for it to get oil on a cold startup.

I might have once forgotten to add oil to an engine when doing an oil change....
Thankfully I figured that out quickly. And, the engine did fine.

[Gordon W.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Patrick, I can imagine the pit in your stomach when you realized what you'd done!

[Patrick H.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Yes, but thankfully it was only a few seconds.

[Robert S.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

I watched a group drain the oil and coolant from an engine, then start it and run it floored until it quit. They sold guesses on how long the engine would run. It ran over two hours. Interesting.

[Duke W.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

If the engine was not running at more than 1500-2000 for a few seconds without oil pressure I doubt if there was any damage.

What bothers me is your decision to replace the cannister with a spin-on. There IS a reason why it leaked. Rather than "re-engineer" the system, find the source of the leak and correct it.

This happens all too often. A problem with 50 year old components or an operator error calls for "re-engineering" rather than identifying and replacing the worn or damaged part or correcting a faulty installation. Cooling systems are an excellent example.

A similar problem happened on my SWC decades ago. The first thing I do after start-up and verifying that oil pressure is normal is look underneath the car for leaks. About three quarts got pumped out before I caught it and shut off the engine.

I recall the problem was that I had replaced the oil filter cannister gasket, but it slipped out of place before I got the bypass valve housing, which retains the gasket, secured. I was in the habit of changing the cannister housing gasket every other filter change.

When was the last time you changed this gasket? Did you remove the bypass valve housing so you could carefully inspect the gasket for damage... then carefully remove the gasket for further inspection? Is the top lip of the filter housing damaged in any way?

If you haven't already done so, do the above. Then using some grease on the gasket seat to hold the gasket in the block, which is what I started doing after that little mishap, carefully install a new gasket and reinstall the bypass valve housing. As you turn the bolt to install the filter housing, wiggle and rotate the housing to ensure that the shell slips between the block flange and bypass valve housing without getting hung up. It should go on straight and the bolt should gradually require more torque as the gasket compresses. I think the spec is 25 lb-ft, but check the book.

The first think to do after engine start-up following an oil change is check for oil pressure. The second thing is to ASAP look under the car for leaks.

The cannister filters actually have more filter area than most spin ons and they are less expensive.

In automotive and aerospace engineering and maintenance one NEVER ignores a failure. There is always a cause and a quest to identify it so it doesn't happen again. Sometimes a "design problem" is identified, but rarely on a proven system that's been around for decades. Other causes typically fall into the categories of "part not built to spec", "damaged part", or "operator error", and the last is probably the most common.

Duke

[Bob S.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Thanks for your detailed comments, Duke, and you raise some good questions. I'm uncomfortable with not knowing the cause of the leakage, and I expected to find a damaged gasket when I removed the canister, but the gasket, which was new, appeared fine, and was in the groove. I'm confused about the reference to removing the bypass valve housing to check the gasket, as I don't see how the bypass valve would possibly be holding the gasket in place. My impression is that the canister gasket fits in the groove between the bypass valve housing and the exterior ridge of the block and isn't retained by the bypass valve. I've never removed the bypass valve routinely during oil changes, but I did remove it yesterday in preparation to install a spin-on conversion; there was no center gasket under the bypass valve as there should have been, and I decided to order a new bypass valve just to start with as many clean, and hopefully correct parts (including the valve gasket) as possible.

In general I agree with your comments about re-engineering, and in the past I felt that since cannister filters for the most part worked for decades, there would be no reason to try the spin-on conversion, which uses the same gasket as the cannister and has the same potential for leakage in that area. I'm also willing to accept that user error is likely the reason behind the leakage, but I've not found any step of the process that I can point to where I might have been at fault. Hence my feeling of unease. Cost of maintenance parts is really not an issue with these cars considering how much of an investment is involved, but I'll comment that the Wix canister I used cost in the $11 range, and the Wix equivalent of a PF-35 was $7-ish but basically I want the best, most trouble-free and least likely to fail solution, not necessarily the least expensive. So far I'd say my limited mechanical skills are more suited to the spin-on filter technology, but I will spend some time re-examining the canister installation process and try to figure out where I might have gone wrong.

thanks again for your comments,
Bob

[Bob R.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Did you remove the old gasket? It frequently gets stuck and you have to use a pick or some similar tool to remove it. If you left the old gasket in and placed a new one over it it will likely leak. Dukes suggestion that the gasket may have been missaligned is also possible. I don't see anything else that would cause your problem. For the one oil change I do a year I see no reason to replace the cannister with a spin on. I think I actually like the old technology if done properly it works well.

[Clark K.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

I was shocked to see how long it took to "lunch" an engine when the clunkers program was in operation. A few seconds without oil pressure and no engine load should not cause a bit of damage.

I also doubt that there is any engine damage since you shut her down so quickly. Before going to the nuisance of removing the pan to look at bearings: get the leak problem fixed, fill it with new oil, and restart it. If you have normal oil pressure and no new noises, drive the car as if nothing happened (because nothing happened).

-Clark

[Duke W.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Thanks for your detailed comments, Duke, and you raise some good questions. I'm uncomfortable with not knowing the cause of the leakage, and I expected to find a damaged gasket when I removed the canister, but the gasket, which was new, appeared fine, and was in the groove. I'm confused about the reference to removing the bypass valve housing to check the gasket, as I don't see how the bypass valve would possibly be holding the gasket in place. My impression is that the canister gasket fits in the groove between the bypass valve housing and the exterior ridge of the block and isn't retained by the bypass valve. I've never removed the bypass valve routinely during oil changes, but I did remove it yesterday in preparation to install a spin-on conversion; there was no center gasket under the bypass valve as there should have been, and I decided to order a new bypass valve just to start with as many clean, and hopefully correct parts (including the valve gasket) as possible.

In general I agree with your comments about re-engineering, and in the past I felt that since cannister filters for the most part worked for decades, there would be no reason to try the spin-on conversion, which uses the same gasket as the cannister and has the same potential for leakage in that area. I'm also willing to accept that user error is likely the reason behind the leakage, but I've not found any step of the process that I can point to where I might have been at fault. Hence my feeling of unease. Cost of maintenance parts is really not an issue with these cars considering how much of an investment is involved, but I'll comment that the Wix canister I used cost in the $11 range, and the Wix equivalent of a PF-35 was $7-ish but basically I want the best, most trouble-free and least likely to fail solution, not necessarily the least expensive. So far I'd say my limited mechanical skills are more suited to the spin-on filter technology, but I will spend some time re-examining the canister installation process and try to figure out where I might have gone wrong.

thanks again for your comments,
Bob

There's no way in hell you can remove and install the cannister gasket without removing the bypass valve housing... that is, if you want a leak free installation by removing the old gasket and properly seating the new gasket. Sure, Bubba doesn't bother. He even stacks new gaskets over the old. If it's only a small drip... no problem!

Once the bypass housing is off, use a dental pick or other sharp tool to be sure all remants of the old gasket are removed. There may be more than one!

Then proceed as I stated previously.

The gasket between the bypass valve housing and the block was a '67 only deal. They were never used previously and are not necessary. At worst it will create a tiny internal leak, but not enough to affect oil pressure.

Go to www.baldwinfilter.com

Cross reference the PF-141 and buy a case. I think there are six to a case. Baldwins are the standard in the HD truck and off-road equipment business. Ask any mine owner who runs 100-ton capacity dump trucks 24-7 in an open pit coal mine operation what kind of filters they use.

Any local parts store that caters to the medium and HD truck trade will be able to order them for you.

Duke

[Clem Z.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

some one posted here that if too long a bell housing bolt is used it will interfere with the seating of the oil filter canister

[Bob S.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

Thanks to all who've responded to this thread, I appreciate all the input. In case I wasn't very clear, I've always used a new gasket, and have removed the old one using either a pick or a exacto knife, but never did remove the bypass valve assembly until after this incident. At this point I'm waiting for a new bypass assembly and will re-assemble with new gaskets and carefully try again.

thanks again,
Bob

[Stuart F.]

Re: How long does it take to damage an engine?

FWIW, my routine is to change twice a year (spring and fall) and I have two cannisters, i.e. one original (heavy gauge) and one repro (light gauge). When I use the original cannister, I change the gasket by removing the by-pass valve assembly as that is the surest way to be certain you changed it properly (specially when laying under the car). The original presses a wider seal into the O-Ring gasket. Then, on my next change, I use the repro cannister (looks better) and it in turn seats into a smaller seal in the O-Ring gasket which I have retained from the previous change. Using the two cannister routine allows me time to completely clean the one I removed and get it ready for the next change.

I get my Wix cartridges from a commercial auto/truck parts store at wholesale at around $4.40 a piece. The place is close by and I have an arrangement whereby they order another one from their warehouse each time I buy one (I'm the only customer). They love to talk old Vettes and give me wholesale w/o question every time.

Lastly, show me one old C1 or C2 owner who hasn't had an "oil dump" within the their cars life time. It happens to us all. I know I have done it several times, but only when I doubled up the gaskets by mistake. Also, I have a spin on kit on the shelf complete with several filters, but I like the extra security of a bullet proof canister as extra protection from road debris. I've known several instances where a spin on filter has gotten knocked off or pierced by running over junk on the road (my Dad's Cavalier for one, and he lost the engine as he was hard of hearing).

Stu Fox