Inconsistent Judging?

[Clark K.]

I began a thread on Friday about a particular car at a meet, about which I now regret. Even though I did not identify the owner, I did identify the car. For that, I have sent an apology via e-mail to Roy Sinor and will apologize to the car owner on Monday, via phone. No disparagement was intended towards the owner or the car, for I just asked a question for the NCRS Discussion Board members relating to what the car owner told me in person on Friday. I consider him a friend and felt very badly for him.

During the many posts in relation to what is referenced, above, there was an excellent suggestion that we take the side issue of judging to another thread and let the original issue rest. I agree.

Here is what one poster wrote in regard to regional and national levels of judging: "...I've been national 61-62 team leader and led judging at chapters, regionals, and nationals. I appreciated the experience and effort of every single judge at every one of those levels. A car will be more severely analyzed at a national than a regional..."

I happen to respectfully disagree with his last sentence. I know of a car that was more "severely analyzed" at a regional meet three months AFTER the car earned a National Top Flight. The exterior and mechanical judging teams at the regional took about 90 minutes, almost three times as long to judge the car and awarded a MUCH larger number of deductions, enough to drop the car to 2nd Flight at the regional meet.

[Russ S.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

I began a thread on Friday about a particular car at a meet, about which I now regret. Even though I did not identify the owner, I did identify the car. For that, I have sent an apology via e-mail to Roy Sinor and will apologize to the car owner on Monday, via phone. No disparagement was intended towards the owner or the car, for I just asked a question for the NCRS Discussion Board members relating to what the car owner told me in person on Friday. I consider him a friend and felt very badly for him.

During the many posts in relation to what is referenced, above, there was an excellent suggestion that we take the side issue of judging to another thread and let the original issue rest. I agree.

Here is what one poster wrote in regard to regional and national levels of judging: "...I've been national 61-62 team leader and led judging at chapters, regionals, and nationals. I appreciated the experience and effort of every single judge at every one of those levels. A car will be more severely analyzed at a national than a regional..."

I happen to respectfully disagree with his last sentence. I know of a car that was more "severely analyzed" at a regional meet three months AFTER the car earned a National Top Flight. The exterior and mechanical judging teams at the regional took about 90 minutes, almost three times as long to judge the car and awarded a MUCH larger number of deductions, enough to drop the car to 2nd Flight at the regional meet.

Any one who judges a car in one third the time (of 90 minutes) in other words 30 minutes, in my opinion isn't doing the car or the owner justice. We pay a lot of money to get these cars to a regional or national and to have them judged only to have them rushed over. It's not fair to the owner.

[Michael J.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Any one who judges a car in one third the time (of 90 minutes) in other words 30 minutes, in my opinion isn't doing the car or the owner justice. We pay a lot of money to get these cars to a regional or national and to have them judged only to have them rushed over. It's not fair to the owner.

+1, sometimes the national meets are not as good as some regionals at judging consistency and rigor according to the book. It depends on the judges.

[Terry M.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark,
The length of time spent judging a car, may or may not relate to its score. I believe it is a mistake to believe that because judging at one location takes an hour and at another location takes two hours that the score will be worse at the longer event. The length of time spent judging a car is dependent on the judges present and the number of cars in the class. Unlike some other judging organizations NCRS does not set a fixed time for judging each car.

NCRS judging does depend on volunteers. At Regional and National level the National Team Leaders select their judges from those who indicate they are attending and willing to judge. This may or may not be the same people at each event. Yes, Team Leaders want to "have a deep bench." Yes, National Team Leaders have their (as I call it) A team. They (the NTLs) try to get their A team at each event, but everyone (well almost) has a life beyond NCRS, and it is not always possible to get the same people at each event. I happen to think this is an advantage in that a different set of eyes will find different issues. If that results in a different score -- so be it. If at one event a member or two of the B team are in the judging cadre and there is a low turn out of cars, the A team judges can seize the opportunity to do some training. When I was NTL I did this, and I expect the present group of NTLs do it as well. This does not necessarily mean the additional time taken will result in a lower score, however it may result in additional scrutiny of the car and some issues not found in a more pressed environment may be brought to the score sheets.

The NCRS mode of operation is that we are members (judges) helping other members (car owners) improve their cars. We do this in several ways: participating on this forum, and judging cars. The car owner is supposed to improve his car by bringing it to several NCRS meets and making the improvements suggested by the judges and with his own research from the TIM&JG, on this board, in The Restorer, from fellow chapter members, and other places. Ideally the car's score will improve at each event until the car receives the award the owner desires.

Sadly that mode of operation is fast fading away. More and more owners hire a restorer to do the work on their car and expect, or hope, to get a Top Flight or 97% right out of the box (sometimes quite literally right out of the trailer), and a Duntov or McLellan within a year. There is a reason a car is allowed three years to achieve all the requisites for those awards, but too many of us are type A personalities and want it all right away. Instant gratification. That will get worse if we ever succeed in attracting younger people to our organization.

While you may disagree with the last sentence quoted, and you have one example to prove it; in my about 15 years as NTL I can tell you that it was true, and it should be true today. However, a "good car" will generally score very uniformly from meet to meet. I can cite you my personal experience to prove that, although it was several decades ago. A car in the process of the kind of owner driven restoration I spoke of above should (baring major issues such as paint or engine or side exhaust) score better at each event it is brought to, with a marginal point reduction at a National.

Edit add: NCRS does not have a perfect system, however for most members it works well.

[Terry M.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Any one who judges a car in one third the time (of 90 minutes) in other words 30 minutes, in my opinion isn't doing the car or the owner justice. We pay a lot of money to get these cars to a regional or national and to have them judged only to have them rushed over. It's not fair to the owner.

I can offer you an option if you want your car judged in 30 minutes and to pay a lot more money, but I won't do it on the board in public. PM me if you need/want that suggestion. I suspect most of you may not need my help with that.

[Gary C.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

A concours car "prepped" for NCRS Judging sometimes make it through the NCRS Judging system with only a 20% deduction when in fact the car should've received a 100% deduction for a concours paint job.

Tom Ames explains the paint decision matrix tree and how it should be applied very well in his Paint presentation.

Recommend anyone who hasn't Judged sign up and get involved before they cast aspersions on "inconsistent Judging". Walk the walk, just don't talk it.

JMTCW,

Gary
....

[Mark D.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark,

It is everyone's right to voice their opinion...so here's mine. Instead of always complaining, why don't you devise a program so that judging is totally consistant. A man of your vast judging experience and decades in NCRS could work miracles straightening out the horrible flaws in the system. The judging guides, I suspect, could be thrown away after your training program has time to work.

I'm just thinking out loud here but, consider it. BTW, where did you park this year at the Frisco Regional? Were they still charging to park in the parking garage?

Mark

[Bruce B.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark,

You appoligized about your original posting and that is fine.

But now you are starting another controversy concerning national versus regional judging.

Why not speak to Roy Sinor privately and get this issue off your mind.

Bruce B

[Roy S.]

[Bruce B.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

AMEN.

Bruce B

[Harry S.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Roy, nicely said.

[Michael J.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

After hearing the facts, I can also give that a +1.

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark, It is everyone's right to voice their opinion...so here's mine. Instead of always complaining, why don't you devise a program so that judging is totally consistant. A man of your vast judging experience and decades in NCRS could work miracles straightening out the horrible flaws in the system. The judging guides, I suspect, could be thrown away after your training program has time to work. I'm just thinking out loud here but, consider it. BTW, where did you park this year at the Frisco Regional? Were they still charging to park in the parking garage? Mark

Mark, I am not always complaining. I support the NCRS with my money and time, as do you and all the other members. We all have our opinions. I have no interest in changing anything in NCRS. I like the system. In this thread, I simply disagreed with one post in regard to consistency in judging from one meet to the next. This forum is for all of us to discuss things that are on our minds, right? The way that I learn is to ask questions and get answers.

Mark, I parked in the underground garage. It cost me $5 to park there on Friday.
-Clark

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

A concours car "prepped" for NCRS Judging sometimes make it through the NCRS Judging system with only a 20% deduction when in fact the car should've received a 100% deduction for a concours paint job. Tom Ames explains the paint decision matrix tree and how it should be applied very well in his Paint presentation. Recommend anyone who hasn't Judged sign up and get involved before they cast aspersions on "inconsistent Judging". Walk the walk, just don't talk it. JMTCW, Gary ....

Gary, I have over 30 years experience judging concours cars for another marque. I know all about volunteer judges and the possible pitfalls. I don't need your lecture on it. I support NCRS's judging standards. Stating my opinion is NOT casting aspersions, in my opinion, on the totality of NCRS judging. -Clark

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark,
Sadly that mode of operation is fast fading away. More and more owners hire a restorer to do the work on their car and expect, or hope, to get a Top Flight or 97% right out of the box (sometimes quite literally right out of the trailer), and a Duntov or McLellan within a year. There is a reason a car is allowed three years to achieve all the requisites for those awards, but too many of us are type A personalities and want it all right away. NCRS does not have a perfect system, however for most members it works well.

Terry, I understand completely. But, there are many owners in our organization that do not have the experience or the skills required to correctly restore cars, much less Corvettes. I would never want an amateur working on my car. In judging another marque, I have seen too many garage paint jobs and ham-fisted mechanics who fouled things up that a skilled restorer would never do. (Yes, I know that there are bad shops) If you own a high end vintage Corvette, take it to a professional if you cannot do the work skillfully, yourself. I don't believe that you have to be a "laborer" to care for a vintage high end Corvette. You are still the restorer of your car whether you do all the work yourself or pay to have it done. -Clark