Fake Documentation

[Ronald R.]

Re: Fake Documentation

looked at the site, 68CY?? dont think they were produced!

[Philip A.]

Re: Documentation

There is NO reason a honest person would buy these or use them. New repo window sticker ETC for display is fine but there is NO reason to buy a fake aged one. OUT & OUT FRAUD. SAD

For consideration, why is the new window sticker OK but not an aged one? An aged repro sticker on an aged survivor car looks just as appropriate as a new repro sticker on a restored car. It is fraud when it is not disclosed as being repro or disclosed as being original. It has been said many times and many ways. Buyer be ware!!!! Evrythign needs to be checked and verified by an expert: Trim tag, vin tag, engine stamp pad, frame, body, Paper work,......

[Roy S.]

Re: Documentation

For consideration, why is the new window sticker OK but not an aged one? An aged repro sticker on an aged survivor car looks just as appropriate as a new repro sticker on a restored car. It is fraud when it is not disclosed as being repro or disclosed as being original. It has been said many times and many ways. Buyer be ware!!!! Evrythign needs to be checked and verified by an expert: Trim tag, vin tag, engine stamp pad, frame, body, Paper work,......

In bold red print, anything less is deception and in my mind fraudulent representation, because the plain simple truth is most people, do not realize this is going on. I would venture to guess most people active in the hobby do not realize how rampant it is.

[Ara G.]

Re: Documentation

In bold red print, anything less is deception and in my mind fraudulent representation, because the plain simple truth is most people, do not realize this is going on. I would venture to guess most people active in the hobby do not realize how rampant it is.

Roy, I couldn't agree MORE....If some guys want fake paperwork or aged paperwork to look cool at a car show surrounded by people who don't know the difference between a Chevelle and a Corvette then fine - BUT it should definitely be marked as REPRODUCTION. I collect old Oil and Gas Porcelain signs and the reputable companies that reproduce them mark their signs as reproductions....clear as day.....This is fraud no matter how you cut it....The next guy who buys the car may not be told they are fake docs and then professes them as "real dea"...I HATE this kind of crap....
ARA

[William F.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Barry,
So, we're back to the pad restamping again. Remember, NCRS says "If it APPEARS like factory, it's acceptable". I personally don't agree pad restamping, but thought you said stamp pads aren't that important in a previous thread on this matter. Where am I going wrong?

[Roy S.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Barry,So, we're back to the pad restamping again. Remember, NCRS says "If it APPEARS like factory, it's acceptable". I personally don't agree pad restamping, but thought you said stamp pads aren't that important in a previous thread on this matter. Where am I going wrong?

How does a fake documentation discussion and comment relate to stamping or if you prefer restamping (a term not in my dictionary) an engine case. In the real world it is a plain simple fact if you can’t tell you don’t know. Those of us that know are fortunate, and when we judge a car we make the appropriate deduction just as NCRS has always done. NCRS is not the organization that claimed to have a box that limited a car to a lesser award if it was not the original case, then bowed to pressure and ignored that box, and more recently changed their judging philosophy to keep from admitting they ignored there own standrad. Years ago some 20 plus years ago in fact NCRS decided to assign points and deduct for detectable deviations on the engine pad. NCRS does not and never has judged paper.

Two different issues completely

1. A Corvette has to have an engine to be restored and complete unless you throw all of them away that lost their original motor.
2. A Corvette does not have to have documentation to be restored and complete.

[Philip A.]

Re: Documentation

Roy
We are on the same page!!! I would never get these documents and agree with you 100%. I wanted folks to think about this more; when new repro is considered OK but not aged repro, hence my start with "For consideration....". I also stated "It is fraud when it is not disclosed as being repro or disclosed as being original." and believe it should be printed on the documents themselves. I just did not state it as boldly and clearly as you did.
Phil

[Robert B.]

Re: Fake Documentation

What we need is to find a way to have GM release this important info. I am told it maybe a matter of time ? Does anyone have any knowledge of when or if this will ever happen ??

[Terry M.]

Re: Fake Documentation

What we need is to find a way to have GM release this important info. I am told it maybe a matter of time ? Does anyone have any knowledge of when or if this will ever happen ??

I am convinced I will be long dead, and probably all of us reading this as well, before any documentation about what options the cars had is found in the bowls of Chevrolet or GM. I have been a member of NCRS since 1980, and this hope has been voiced since that time. If it hasn't happened by now; it isn't going to happen. However, since hope springs eternal, I expect this will be brought up repeatedly -- aven after we are all gone.

[Roy S.]

Re: Documentation

Roy
We are on the same page!!! I would never get these documents and agree with you 100%. I wanted folks to think about this more; when new repro is considered OK but not aged repro, hence my start with "For consideration....". I also stated "It is fraud when it is not disclosed as being repro or disclosed as being original." and believe it should be printed on the documents themselves. I just did not state it as boldly and clearly as you did.
Phil

Ageed Phil I knew that from your first post.

[Steven B.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Agree with Terry. I worked for a company required by the Fed. to keep certain special records for years and also worked for the Fed. in a couple of jobs with the same requirements and when time is up much of it is destroyed. Some were, and are, even kept in caves in the midwest. I also spoke a long time ago with Hill and McClellan about various production records and each said they wish they existed but were likely long gone. Companies have no need to maintain certain records past N years and have no requirement. They would just be paying for storage space. Most administrators and accountants are not enthusiasts. If most dealers can't afford to keep the records the manufacturer can't afford to keep all of them. There is no financial or intrinsic value to them. I would love to have dealer, production and delivery records for my '57 but when the district rep checked for me in '64 --- nothing. I throw away a lot of records after a few years, even tax returns. SOME of these records do exist, and NCRS has access to them, but many do not. Unfortunate. I do often dream about finding that catch in a corner of GM Heaven, though.

[Kenneth H.]

Re: Documentation

Sorry guys, but I couldn't disagree with you more. When I take my vette to a car show I present it with a showboard at front of the car, a book with the car's history, magazine articles about the performance of the '70 LT1, pictures of various original components with date codes and numbers and a bunch of other pertinent information. I also place a reproduction window sticker on the passenger side window for conversational purposes. I'm not representing it to be original, and there is no financial gain from the act of showing it. There is absolutely no reason to plaster it with a "REPRODUCTION" disclaimer.

Now, if I were to sell the car and represent that the window sticker was original, then that act would be fraudulant, but not otherwise since there is no benefit gained by not disclaiming.

[Dick W.]

Re: Fake Documentation

I don't have a problem with the fake documents when used for display purposes, BUT.......it seems all too often when the vehicle changes hands, the word reproduction is forgotten when it comes to the documents. Corvette virgins can and have been fooled by them and buy something that is anything but what it is represented to be.

As I travel around inspecting cars for potential buyers I see all too many repro trim tags, restoration engines, fakey fakey paper work. Lately have seen several "made" big block cars. As long as there is the financial incentive there will be counterfeit docs, tags, cars......

[Paul J.]

Re: Fake Documentation

I am convinced I will be long dead, and probably all of us reading this as well, before any documentation about what options the cars had is found in the bowls of Chevrolet or GM. I have been a member of NCRS since 1980, and this hope has been voiced since that time. If it hasn't happened by now; it isn't going to happen. However, since hope springs eternal, I expect this will be brought up repeatedly -- aven after we are all gone.

I believe that there is a possiblity that these records exist, but not in the way that many of you think. Some of these records may still be in a landfill. Landfills are compacted and anerobic, so paper does not degrade very much (I've seen 40+ year old hot dogs in a freshly opened landfill). I have not been able to find out what the disposal method was for waste paper at GM/or Chevrolet/or the plant. During the 1960's many companies simply burned their waste paper in an incinerator out back, and if this method was used then nothing exists. But if these documents were sent to a landfill, it would be easy to find which one, but very difficult to find where. Digging them up would require permits and equipment costs, probably exceeding their value. So in theory, these documents might exist, they're just not accessable.

Paul

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Ken,
People have been faking paperwork since before Corvettes were first made. Fake paper goes back to the middle ages, and the FBI has had a paper analysis office since before Corvettes were built in Flint. Good ol' J Edgar started it. Keep this in mind:
http://www.last.fm/music/The+Who/_/W...t+Fooled+Again

TERRY
I was commenting on the origonal thread. He thought a block stamp pad was more importante than paper work. I was pointing out that Corvette blocks were being stamped before Fake CORVETTE paperwork was being produced. I do understand papers have been faked for 100's of years but not for Corvettes.