Fake Documentation

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Barry,
So, we're back to the pad restamping again. Remember, NCRS says "If it APPEARS like factory, it's acceptable". I personally don't agree pad restamping, but thought you said stamp pads aren't that important in a previous thread on this matter. Where am I going wrong?

BILL
Again i was responding to the original post. I was making the point to NOT trust stamp pads or Paperwork alone because there are very good fakes out there. Please reread my original post as I thought he would trust a stamp pad before paperwork. Not sure why my comment got your panties in a wad. Remember this is supposed to be fun.

[Steven B.]

Re: Fake Documentation

And unfortunately now real cars and real paperwork becomes suspect. I showed a fellow, non-NCRS but a show car guy, my original window stickers, ordering documents, and copy of letter from my dealer and he responded that they looked pretty good and asked who "did them for me". When these "repro" documents are taken as legit. the problem intensifies and people get hurt$$$.

[Jerry G.]

Re: Fake Documentation

When I see Corvette resto mods selling for more than real documented original cars, it tells me we are in a bubble talking to ourselves. The market et all has moved on.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Fake Documentation

And unfortunately now real cars and real paperwork becomes suspect. I showed a fellow, non-NCRS but a show car guy, my original window stickers, ordering documents, and copy of letter from my dealer and he responded that they looked pretty good and asked who "did them for me". When these "repro" documents are taken as legit. the problem intensifies and people get hurt$$$.

It's all about the money. Back in the day when Corvettes were only 2000/5000$ There wasn't much of a premium on paperwork or original blocks,transmission & paint. Now it's all about " ORIGINAL" & #'S matching. As Pogo said "We have meet the enemy & he is us" Again this hobby started out because we love Corvettes lets keep it that way.

[Roy S.]

Re: Fake Documentation

When I see Corvette resto mods selling for more than real documented original cars, it tells me we are in a bubble talking to ourselves. The market et all has moved on.

[Gene M.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Everything said is so true. But the restomod does not need nor require any paper work documentation to verify what it is. A Vette no matter the condition always costs more than one without. And I think if one was to closely monitor the funds dependent on the extent of the modifications done to restomod the restored Vette will run one doing the work more $ cash. Understand anything done to a restomod is correct, not the case with a restoration. Parts purchased at local salvage yards, Rock Auto or NAPA are far cheaper than Corvette jobbers.

A base engine, no option small block restoration is a looser financially. I feel the restomod will always be ahead dollars and cents wise because one will have less in it compared to the turn over price. As the babyboomes age there will be a time you will not be able to give away a restored 435 horse. And it will not matter if the block is real stamping or paper work or not. The reason being a stock Mustang will blow it away........... collector interest are changing.

It has already happened to the 55-57 Chevys, restomod sell, restored originals don't unless ya give them away.

[Philip A.]

Re: Fake Documentation

If there are GM records regarding early vettes and they come out, it will be a Pandora's box opening up from some folks. I think many cars will have more options than when delivered, some cars will have Vin tags that do not correspond with Trim tags (and converse), many big block, SHP, and rare cars will be found to be "created". I also think following the release of these regards, real cars will go up in value and the impure cars will go down in value. This may also create a boon for NCRS judging because now your car should be judged against it's known GM build/delivery records. Many cars should need to be re-judged in my opinion.

[Roy S.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Everything said is so true. But the restomod does not need nor require any paper work documentation to verify what it is. A Vette no matter the condition always costs more than one without. And I think if one was to closely monitor the funds dependent on the extent of the modifications done to restomod the restored Vette will run one doing the work more $ cash. Understand anything done to a restomod is correct, not the case with a restoration. Parts purchased at local salvage yards, Rock Auto or NAPA are far cheaper than Corvette jobbers.

A base engine, no option small block restoration is a looser financially. I feel the restomod will always be ahead dollars and cents wise because one will have less in it compared to the turn over price. As the babyboomes age there will be a time you will not be able to give away a restored 435 horse. And it will not matter if the block is real stamping or paper work or not. The reason being a stock Mustang will blow it away........... collector interest are changing.

It has already happened to the 55-57 Chevys, restomod sell, restored originals don't unless ya give them away.

Gene, I think we are both preaching to the choir here, but I do not agree with your assessment, until history proves what a real 435 is worth you’re not going to convince me some restomod is worth more. High dollar restomods sell for half their build cost sometimes a third and they are built often times from derelicts unfortunately sometimes from good cars.

Today a real Model A is worth as much as it ever was or close to it, and a Model A street rod is worth 35% of its build cost. Yea it might be worth more than the real Model A but it cost a lot more to build than the real Model A did to restore. Good restomods are not built for less than a honest real Corvette restoration cost, wannabe good restomods might be built for less but they never bring the big dollars, just like wannabe restored Corvettes don’t bring good bucks. In this world you get what you pay for assuming you do your due diligence. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

I'll take the real Corvette over the street rod or the restomod any day of the week. Well maybe I shouldn’t say it quite like that after all I kept the Model A street rod and just sold the restomod Corvette.

[Anthony P.]

Re: Fake Documentation

I have owned my 66 since 1974, bought it from a friend he had it 2 years, so I know of the originality of the car and options, I don't know the first 6 years, or the owners. I have no documentation at all, we never thought to ask for the stuff back in the day. BUT I WILL NEVER RESORT TO THE FAKE STUFF!! I would rather know what I have then try to impress somebody (who I don't know or care to know) WITH FAKE PAPER, WARRANTY CARD,ETC. thats just how it is and should be IMHO.

[Philip A.]

Re: Fake Documentation

My 2 cents on resto-mod versus correct restored/original. While some resto-mods may be valued at more than a correct restored/original at a point in time, they will always plummet over time and depreciate more until being of less value than a correct restored/original. Think about it for a second, the correct restored/original specs do not change and once there the car only needs to be maintained to have top value. The resto-mod has no specs and the top dollars cars have to use the latest and greatest technology which is always changing. They need to be redone to maintain top value. Easy example for this forum, a C1 or C2 resto-mod, with C4, C5, C6, C7, etc. suspension and drive train. They were the top resto mod until the next generation suspension and drive train came out.

[William F.]

Re: Fake Documentation

TERRY,
Now look who's got their panties in a wad.Lighten up, "It's supposed to be fun.", remember?

[Terry M.]

Re: Fake Documentation

TERRY,
Now look who's got their panties in a wad.Lighten up, "It's supposed to be fun.", remember?

Not me bro'. We just need to realize there is a great big world out there beyond our bubble. And Ken is right that the Corvette "fake paper" didn't start showing up until the '80s and the reason is that before that our cars were just used cars and there was no money to be made from them. As soon as people began "investing" their IRAs in collector cars the wheels ran off the rails and we were no longer a hobby. We became an investment opportunity. It has been all down hill since then.

[William F.]

Re: Fake Documentation

Terry,
Sorry. I meant to direct my reply to Barry, who seemed overwrought. Yes, money is involved now, and since it is and a rea clar is worth more than a made up one or even one with an acceptable for judging restamp, it's important to know the difference IF possible. Some say nobody can tell for sure if a pad stamp belongs to the motor that came in the car or is a restamp, don't know. Regarding people buying Corvettes for their IRA; yes prices have gone up, but so far, good to have something that isn't loosing value and you can (and should) enjoy driving.

[Michael J.]

Re: Documentation

Sorry guys, but I couldn't disagree with you more. When I take my vette to a car show I present it with a showboard at front of the car, a book with the car's history, magazine articles about the performance of the '70 LT1, pictures of various original components with date codes and numbers and a bunch of other pertinent information. I also place a reproduction window sticker on the passenger side window for conversational purposes. I'm not representing it to be original, and there is no financial gain from the act of showing it. There is absolutely no reason to plaster it with a "REPRODUCTION" disclaimer.

Now, if I were to sell the car and represent that the window sticker was original, then that act would be fraudulant, but not otherwise since there is no benefit gained by not disclaiming.

+1, I totally agree and do the same thing when I enter my '67 in "Show and Shine" events. People like the historic documentation aspects of the show board, takes them back in time and the window sticker is a very important part, real or fake, new or aged.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Documentation

+1, I totally agree and do the same thing when I enter my '67 in "Show and Shine" events. People like the historic documentation aspects of the show board, takes them back in time and the window sticker is a very important part, real or fake, new or aged.

I don't think any of us are talking about repo paperwork on signboards or to show but you don't need to pay big money to have them aged & LOOK like they came with the car.I can see no other reason to do this but pass it as "ORIGINAL PAPERWORK" somewhere down the line.