Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

[Peter S.]

I received the power brake kit from Zip for my 1975 corvette from an astute family member, but I had questions about how they stacked up to original brake lines and how they would score. Generally, the bends are "close enough" that some minor tweaking can get them to match the existing. Where I noticed the biggest differences were the colors of the fittings around the proportioning valve and master cylinder, and the armor "style." My original brake lines are my only sample to which I can compare. Below are some pictures comparing the old and new fittings, as well as the armor.


Front master cylinder brake line (master cylinder fitting) - The line fitting from Zip is too green. Original fitting is more of a blue-green.


Front master cylinder brake line (proportioning valve fitting) - I have a hard time determining if the original fitting was green, or left a natural brass color. All of the original fittings I looked at retained their color on the thread, I have a hard time believing this one fitting lost all its color. Also, the other master cylinder brake line left the fitting that connected to the proportioning valve a natural brass color.


Rear master cylinder brake line (master cylinder fitting) -The fitting from Zip is too light. I would describe the Zip fitting as a UNC blue, and the original fitting as Duke blue.


Rear master cylinder brake line (proportioning valve fitting) - Fittings appear to match as a natural brass finish.


Proportioning valve to rear brake line (proportioning valve fitting) - Same blue as the rear master cylinder brake line (MC fitting). I would describe the Zip fitting as a UNC blue, and the original fitting as Duke blue.


Front right brake line (proportioning valve fitting) - The purples appear to match very well.


Front left brake line (proportioning valve fitting) - The purples appear to match very well.


Front master cylinder brake line - Armor too short


Rear master cylinder brake line - Armor too short


Up-close armor comparision - The armor is too spread out, and from the previous armor pictures, it was already too short.



I have not attended an NCRS judging event yet (the national convention will be my first), but I would expect there would be a deduct for the incorrect fitting colors and the armor not being completely correct. I would love to hear the opinions of those who have judged the 1973-1977 mechanical section. At this point, I plan to use the Zip brake lines. If I miss a flight award because of a few points, then I obviously have many other incorrect items.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

I have not attended an NCRS judging event yet (the national convention will be my first), but I would expect there would be a deduct for the incorrect fitting colors and the armor not being completely correct. I would love to hear the opinions of those who have judged the 1973-1977 mechanical section. At this point, I plan to use the Zip brake lines. If I miss a flight award because of a few points, then I obviously have many other incorrect items.

The armor configuration is not any different with any other manufacturer. So, you will not gain much by looking elsewhere.

I have not seen "better" colors than what you have there. I suspect that most manufacturers won't care, and the hit in judging is minimal, if any.

Note that your car must be judged at a Chapter or Regional Meet before it can be judged at a National Meet. Perhaps you missed that, or perhaps you only plan on attending and not having your car judged.
I just thought I'd point that out in case you planned on the National as the first event for your car.

Patrick

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Pete,
What I did on my 72 was, on the new lines pick the end that has the straightest and longest on each one. Then I cut the 1/4 flare off of it. I took the time to straighten them out just a little bit. I then cut the old lines however I needed to get the old insulators off. I sent the insulators out to be replated. I then took the insulators off the new lines.

Now you have your old insulators replated in front of you with your new lines with one end cut, one fitting on the opposite end, and no insulators. Take your old replated insulators and slide them over your new lines, put the fitting back on the end you took it off of and reflare the end again.

They look just like the originals with the exception of the colors on the fitting being a little off.

It might sound like a lot of work, but compared to what we do to other parts to make them look original, it is not so bad.

This looks far better than just replacing the old lines with the new.

I hope I explained it well enough so you get the just of what I was trying to say.

Best of luck,

Monte

[Peter S.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

The armor configuration is not any different with any other manufacturer. So, you will not gain much by looking elsewhere.

I have not seen "better" colors than what you have there. I suspect that most manufacturers won't care, and the hit in judging is minimal, if any.

Note that your car must be judged at a Chapter or Regional Meet before it can be judged at a National Meet. Perhaps you missed that, or perhaps you only plan on attending and not having your car judged.
I just thought I'd point that out in case you planned on the National as the first event for your car.

Patrick

Patrick, I will be attending without entering either car for judging - neither car has been judged at any level. I do plan on registering as an observer judge and will be interested to see how brake lines are judged. I will be a bit disappointed if no points are deducted if others present cars with shorter armor and incorrect colors. But, maybe my car is not typical. Maybe the armor length was not very exact when it was cut, and possibly varies from car to car.

Pete,
What I did on my 72 was, on the new lines pick the end that has the straightest and longest on each one. Then I cut the 1/4 flare off of it. I took the time to straighten them out just a little bit. I then cut the old lines however I needed to get the old insulators off. I sent the insulators out to be replated. I then took the insulators off the new lines.

Now you have your old insulators replated in front of you with your new lines with one end cut, one fitting on the opposite end, and no insulators. Take your old replated insulators and slide them over your new lines, put the fitting back on the end you took it off of and reflare the end again.

They look just like the originals with the exception of the colors on the fitting being a little off.

It might sound like a lot of work, but compared to what we do to other parts to make them look original, it is not so bad.

This looks far better than just replacing the old lines with the new.

I hope I explained it well enough so you get the just of what I was trying to say.

Best of luck,

Monte

That's a great idea Monte. I will be sure to check my armor to see if it is worth saving on all my brake lines. This would also be an easy way to get a tube bender in there and get the bends near perfect.

[Michael W.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

But, maybe my car is not typical. Maybe the armor length was not very exact when it was cut, and possibly varies from car to car.

This is a major part of learning how to judge- not presuming all cars were built one way and one way only. Never say never and always avoid saying always. Another valuable skill is apportioning a fair and reasonable deduction. A review of the '73-'77 judging sheet indicates all that ALL fuel and brake lines as well as clamps and parking brake features are worth a grand total of 8 points for originality and 6 for condition. With this in mind, it would be pretty hard to justify even a 1 point deduction for a minor variation in the length of armour and (possibly) a difference in fitting colour. If a 1 point deduction could be justified for these transgressions, what should be deducted for missing armour and NO colour on the fittings- which is more typical of restored cars?

[Peter S.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

A review of the '73-'77 judging sheet indicates all that ALL fuel and brake lines as well as clamps and parking brake features are worth a grand total of 8 points for originality and 6 for condition. With this in mind, it would be pretty hard to justify even a 1 point deduction for a minor variation in the length of armour and (possibly) a difference in fitting colour. If a 1 point deduction could be justified for these transgressions, what should be deducted for missing armour and NO colour on the fittings- which is more typical of restored cars?

That is a fair point Mike, and I feel comfortable proceeding with my Zip lines as-is.

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

I shared with Peter how I did the color on the fitting as well. I have not shared it with everybody as it is not refined and I think there must be a better way than how I did it. But ultimately I did get the colors right long enough to get through a few years of judging.

It is a little difficult to get the bends as close to the fittings as original lines have, but you can get it a lot closer than the re-pops are made with.

One would think points should be removed for armour and color being off.

Best of luck guys.

[Michael W.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

One would think points should be removed for armour and color being off.

Best of luck guys.

How many do you think is fair?

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Mike,
It is just my opinion, and a lot of this is opinion, I have the tendency to look at the complexity of the parts being judged.

For example: a straight brake line that runs from the proportioning valve would carry a lot less value. Very little complexity to the part. The lines with armour are a little more complex as you are judging, bends, armour, fittings, fitting color, condition and I am sure a few more things I have forgotten.

Depending on condition, the color might even be judged under condition. More on that later.

Something has to be deducted for the wrong length armour. Something has to be deducted for color. The only reason I feel this is, if there is no deduction for either, why try to make them like they were originally.

It is easy to say "1" point. This is for sure one of those areas that needs a little more consideration and a little more explanation, but we could actually do that with everything making things a mess.

Bottom line: The e-brake components complexity is at least half of the "8" points. Breaking it down like that, it points back to "1" point for the lines.

The color might be deducted a "1/2" point in a dream world. Siting lack of attiquit protective coating resulting in a lighter color. or something similar.

It does need to be addressed in some way.

What is your opinion on my ideas?

Monte

[Patrick H.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

To get more specific there are 4 points for Originality and 4 points for Condition on Fuel & Brake Lines in the 68-72 judging sheets.
Condition is not the discussion so you're down to 4 for Originality.

Give 50% to brakes, 50% to fuel lines and you get 2 points for Originality on the brake lines. This includes every hard line on the car from front to back, crossovers and master cylinder lines.
Now evaluate the finish, the material, the fittings, the brass junction blocks, the configuration of the bends and the configuration of the armor.
Is looser wrap on the armor worth 50% of your originality points? Color on the fittings?

No, so they are not deducted. It takes a complete lack of armor or the use of stainless to get a 50% (1 point) deduction.
Anything else gets written down as a comment or notation. That's just the way it is in the judging game.

Patrick

[Michael W.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Bottom line: The e-brake components complexity is at least half of the "8" points. Breaking it down like that, it points back to "1" point for the lines.

Let's go with your division of 4 points for the e-brake components which leaves 4 for the lines. Remember that these 4 are for ALL the lines everywhere on the car, both fuel and brake. Let's allocate to 2 of the 4 for fuel and 2 for brake. Let's divide the 2 for brake into 1 for front, 1 for back. If you've only got one point for ALL the front lines and have to apply the five dimensions of originality, it's pretty hard to take that 1 point away for minor deviations like length of armour and colour.

How many points would you remove if the car had Bubba inspired rubber and copper tubing instead?

I'd make a 'dot' on the page, leave some constructive comments to review with the owner and move on to bigger and nastier things.

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Patrick,

Thanks for clearing it up. Somebody has to make some kind of decission on these matters.
So, Back to the original question, if it is the same for 73-77, the brake lines are a non-issue.
With more points allowed for more components on the 73-77, my guess the break down would still be similar.

A lot of what we do in this hobby is for our own satisfaction. That is why it is a hobby. Work on things that are going to loose points and after that come back and address a few of these other thing if the award is the focus for now.

I know I have made tools to make a vacuum line have the correct flare on it. I would not have lost any points if the flare is not there, like most cars, but certain things matter to each of us. Again, this is a hobby.

It is a great way to stay busy, to meet nice people and to set and achieve goal. We are a pretty lucky group to have the problems we have. To be spending a Sunday worrying about if our brake lines on our cars are the right length, guys, I would have to say we made it.

Let's count our blessings and have some fun with this stuff and remember just how good we have it.

Enjoy the day.

Best of luck,

Monte

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

I think you guys are right. It is a very difficult thing to judge. There has to be leeway in these matters.
I have learned a lot from talking to you guys this morning.
The bigger issue is, I am sure we could have this descussion about every section of the car. At a higher level of judging is there other judging sheets that are more detailed?

Something where you take all the sheets and give each point ten times the credit. On some level this might be interesting to do. At the end divide the point by ten and see what happens. My guess is you would probably get the same results, but it might prove to be interesting. That way a judge could deduct a point or two, and it might have something about the results.

I know a lot of discussions like this go one by people with a lot more knowledge than I have. The rest of us do appreciate the time you guys put into this. Every day is a learning process in some aspect of this hobby.
Monte

[Patrick H.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

OK, 8 for originality on the 73-77 sheets making it 4 each for fuel and brake.

Even then, using CDCIF categories and skipping the date you have CCIF.
Configuration would likely include both the bends as well as the armor, so you're still at half a point.
If the bends were bad and the armor the repro stuff I could see 1 point max.

[Michael W.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

OK, 8 for originality on the 73-77 sheets making it 4 each for fuel and brake.

The 73-77 sheets also include the e-brake assembly in the 8 points.