test for ethanol

[Dan D.]

Re: test for ethanol

Last year I bought a small mini-rototiller (4 stroke). The manual says it is designed for E10, but it also very strongly states to not use E15 or anything higher than E10. It does not indicate in any way what will happen to it if you use >E10, except that it will do something bad and void the warranty.

So if the gas suppliers are not accurately mixing the blend, then this is worrisome. -Dan-

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

Yes, that is my fear too. And when you couple that with the latest push for legalizing E15, and the big financial, political, and regulatory incentives to push more ethanol out the door, it is not an idle worry, IMO.

[William F.]

Re: test for ethanol

I do want to deal in facts and not "sky is falling" tales. Regarding facts, does anybody believe that water will NOT separate from ethanol fuel if left in tank for several weeks or months? Is it just a legend that outboard marine manufactures recommend replacing OLDER type fuel lines with ones that are ethanol resistant?Try putting a match to a small container of todays's E10(in a safe place) after it has been stored for a few weeks and see if it will even light.Where am I going wrong? You say?
Thanks to those who gave tips on ethanol testing, but necessary tolls seem too expensive.

[Paul J.]

Re: test for ethanol

Actually Michael, not it's not 'pretty well documented' at all. Lots of anecdotal stories, lots of finger pointing and assumptions, but very little documentation. But, if you've got your mind made up...........

Documentation? I don't have any but I have an experience. In the mid 90's I went to my parts supplier and told him that I needed a better price on fuel pumps, since I was going through a lot of them. I saw this in mid to late 80's Chrysler products. He told me they were selling a lot of them and did'nt hesitate to adjust my contract. Just another assumption? Perhaps, but I've never had this problem before or since.

Here's some interesting reading below. Joe and Gary, the Consumer Reports link discusses small engine carburator corrosion. I've also included a couple of editorials about ethanol in general. In addition, there are tons of videos on YouTube, both pro and con.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_fuel_disadvantages.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel read the Technology section

http://news.consumerreports.org/home/2009/06/ethanol-e10-e15-lobbying-group-growth-energy-opei-lawn-mower-engines.html

http://www.daybreakfishing.com/ethanol-fuel.html

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2011/01/10/what-are-the-problems-with-using-corn-ethanol-for-fuel/

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm Interesting editorial

[Michael W.]

Re: test for ethanol

Regarding facts, does anybody believe that water will NOT separate from ethanol fuel if left in tank for several weeks or months?

Your question is slightly confusing but, I'll stick up my hand and say 'Me!' As stated above, aside from daily beaters, each of my toys gets stored for six months a year. Never a moments problem. The Corvette starts immediately in the spring after sitting with a full tank of E10. No 'stabil' or similar either.


PRESUMING the gas you buy is not already contaminated (extremely unlikely) and the container it's put in is clean and adequately sealed, there is no significant amount of moisture present at that point to worry about. The fuel retailers themselves state that it has a storage life of 6-12 months in this condition. Should there be slight ingress of moisture over a protracted period of low usage through a gas cap vent or similar, the ethanol acts in beneficial way in the same manner as the small bottles of 'dry gas' we used to put in cars over the winter to prevent gas line freezing. The moisture will be absorbed and remain in suspension up to point the fuel becomes saturated and phase separation occurs. The volume of water required to achieve this is remarkably high and is not something that is going to happen to a car either in daily use or long term storage given reasonable care. That's why I referred to the addition of water to fuel in a jar above as theatrics- it just spreads misinformation based on half truths.

Leaving E10 in open containers is obviously just looking for problems. Storing any fuel in an open container is looking for trouble. leaving brake fluid in an open container is risky etc etc. The horror stories we hear from the marine community are frequently on boats with open fuel vents sitting in high humidity environment. There's not much in common with our beloved cars that get pampered to an O/C level that make normal people wonder about us. If we were to leave our cars in a similar environment, frame and birdcage rust would be our concern, not fuel.

It is true that the weed wacker and boating manufacturers were slow off the mark about using ethanol resistant materials in some cases- but the same is not true about the auto industry. Compliant materials have been used for the last 20 years minimum and probably longer. If the fuel lines on a car are older than that, they're due for a change anyway, E10 or not.

[William F.]

Re: test for ethanol

Use E10 and change all those things-fuel lines, fuel pumps, carb kits if you like(or if you can't find ethanol free gas), but I don't want the hassle. I'll continue to seek out and fill up at stations that have ethanol free gas. Just wish there was a simple test/kit to verify that gas labeled as ethanol free is trully ethanol free.-That's what I asked in original thread but got a lot about "don't worry about ethanol,"from some, at least, instead.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

Use E10 and change all those things-fuel lines, fuel pumps, carb kits if you like(or if you can't find ethanol free gas), but I don't want the hassle. I'll continue to seek out and fill up at stations that have ethanol free gas. Just wish there was a simple test/kit to verify that gas labeled as ethanol free is trully ethanol free.-That's what I asked in original thread but got a lot about "don't worry about ethanol,"from some, at least, instead.

William-------


In California you don't need to worry about ethanol test kits. However, you probably don't want to drive the car in California because for all practical purposes you won't find any ethanol-free gasoline here. Plus, I believe there are quite a few other states where the same situation exists.

[Paul J.]

Re: test for ethanol

William-------


In California you don't need to worry about ethanol test kits. However, you probably don't want to drive the car in California because for all practical purposes you won't find any ethanol-free gasoline here. Plus, I believe there are quite a few other states where the same situation exists.

The link below shows the counties that are presently ozone non-attainment. Almost all of the States that these counties are in have adopted rules making the sale of ethanol mandantory during the summer ozone season, and in most cases the oil jobbers do not change the formula from season to season so all that you can buy is ethanol. States with big issues (like California, as Joe noted) mandate that ethanol be used year-round.

This does not address Obama's promotion of ethanol for fuel independence. I do not know how that affects availability.

http://www.epa.gov/airquality/ozonepollution/designations/2008standards/state.htm

[William F.]

Re: test for ethanol

Joe,
Guess I didn't realize you live in CA. and have no choice but to make your car compatible with E10. Fortunately, there are some stations in MS., where I live, that do have ethanol free premium-at least that's what they say, but as I said, a distributor says sometimes may not be so; that's why I hoped to find a way to verify.
Best regards
'62 340 hp
'67 L79
'67 L36

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

This is what happens to a new ZR1 that runs an E85 mix with E10 (ZR1 is not a flex fuel but the tuners try this). It basically destroys the impeller and the intercooler fins with longer term use. This is typical formic acid/H2O corrosion from ethanol. As E85, E10, (soon E15?) and some other gasolines are "batched" through the products pipelines, the pipeline condition determines turbulent vs. laminar flow at the slug interfaces, as does the pressure operational conditions of the lines. This many times leads to hundreds of gallons, or more, of mixed product between batch receivers, and more subtle mixing as well. The problem is, what does the jobber do with that mix? Burn it to dispose, or sell it in dilution with the branded product? That's part of the problem going forward as the government mandate for ethanol sales stands or is increased, while gasoline sales drop, what to do to make the quota and avoid the fines?

[Terry M.]

Re: test for ethanol

This is what happens to a new ZR1 that runs an E85 mix with E10 (ZR1 is not a flex fuel but the tuners try this). It basically destroys the impeller and the intercooler fins with longer term use. This is typical formic acid/H2O corrosion from ethanol. As E85, E10, (soon E15?) and some other gasolines are "batched" through the products pipelines, the pipeline condition determines turbulent vs. laminar flow at the slug interfaces, as does the pressure operational conditions of the lines. This many times leads to hundreds of gallons, or more, of mixed product between batch receivers, and more subtle mixing as well. The problem is, what does the jobber do with that mix? Burn it to dispose, or sell it in dilution with the branded product? That's part of the problem going forward as the government mandate for ethanol sales stands or is increased, while gasoline sales drop, what to do to make the quota and avoid the fines?

Michael,
My understanding is that the ethanol is added at the bulk terminal, and is NOT sent through pipelines for the reason you mention among others. The ethanol is trucked in tankers specifically for this product to the bulk terminals and then added to the delivery tanker as the tanker is filled with other additives specific to the brand being delivered. When attempting to buy alcohol free fuel (hopeless in Illinois) I would be concerned about the previous product in the delivery tanker when the "alcohol free" batch is filled and delivered, however, I would expect dilution would in most cases make that minimal.

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

That is the most common thing today Terry, but in the last few years, things are changing, and as more ethanol is pushed out into the market, the pipeline batching will increase, with batching of pure ethanol too. It is just too expensive to move that much ethanol and blend by rail and tanker, the volumes are huge now. Today some of our product pipelines in Texas and Louisiana are carrying ethanol batches, as well as E10, on a limited basis for now. More pipelines are doing it today, and the push started 5 years ago,see this:

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/3920/e10-pipeline-transportation-trials-show-promising-results/

I am really talking more about what happens in the next few years as the ethanol volume grows rapidly due to mandates and political/regulatory agendas. The vast majority today is not a big worry, other than the problems with sloppy operators tankers, rail cars, storage tanks, blending operation, etc.

[Terry M.]

Re: test for ethanol

That is the most common thing today Terry, but in the last few years, things are changing, and as more ethanol is pushed out into the market, the pipeline batching will increase, with batching of pure ethanol too. It is just too expensive to move that much ethanol and blend by rail and tanker, the volumes are huge now. Today some of our product pipelines in Texas and Louisiana are carrying ethanol batches, as well as E10, on a limited basis for now. More pipelines are doing it today, and the push started 5 years ago,see this:

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/3920/e10-pipeline-transportation-trials-show-promising-results/

I am really talking more about what happens in the next few years as the ethanol volume grows rapidly due to mandates and political/regulatory agendas. The vast majority today is not a big worry, other than the problems with sloppy operators tankers, rail cars, storage tanks, blending operation, etc.

Then perhaps Bill has some reason for concern about the purity of his "alcohol free" fuel. It would appear the freight train is coming and all of us better get off the tracks.

As to fuel contamination there was a case near to me in Northeastern Illinois and Northwestern Indiana in which contaminated fuel was sold to dozens (maybe hundreds) of BP and other branded stations in the area from the BP refinery in Whiting Indiana. Some stations as far north as Milwaukee were affected, and thousands of claims were made by motorists. I don't recall that the exact nature of the contamination was ever revealed, but cars failed to run and their entire fuel systems had to be flushed. This incident received wide publicity at the time, and based on that publicity I think it is safe to say that major contamination, at least to the point of noticeably affecting vehicle operation, doesn't happen very often -- especially given the complexity of the fuel delivery system in North America. I am not citing this example to stick up for the oil companies, but merely to point out the real world experience that we all take for granted every day.

[Dick W.]

Re: test for ethanol

Michael,
My understanding is that the ethanol is added at the bulk terminal, and is NOT sent through pipelines for the reason you mention among others. The ethanol is trucked in tankers specifically for this product to the bulk terminals and then added to the delivery tanker as the tanker is filled with other additives specific to the brand being delivered. When attempting to buy alcohol free fuel (hopeless in Illinois) I would be concerned about the previous product in the delivery tanker when the "alcohol free" batch is filled and delivered, however, I would expect dilution would in most cases make that minimal.

Ethanol is transported by rail car or truck to the terminal and mixed as the product is loaded on the tank truck for delivery to the retail stores. The reason for transporting via pipelines is the ethanol is very corrosive Anne would damage the pipelines. It is also a very good cleaner. In NC before stations could dispense ethanol "contaminated" fuels the tanks had to be cleaned

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

I agree Terry, the system is incredibly complex today compared to when I started in the business 40 years ago. Back in those days, things were simple, products were simple, and government was not into heavy mandates, subsidies, and regulations for common carrier intrastate and interstate pipelines. Today, all it takes is a government ruling that you will do something or carry something and it happens no matter what the engineering, scientific, and practical issues may be. I still don't trust the government to make all these decisions and require all of us to do it no matter what, call me crazy.