Negativity

[Dan D.]

Re: Negativity

Last night I was at a local cruise show and there was a very nice 64 convertible there. In talking with the owner, he indicated that he would like to get some information about his car. For instance how many power window, radio delete FI cars were produced. I told him that NCRS could probably provide a lot of this information. He was quick to point out that he was in NCRS for several years. About 5 years ago he dropped out. The reason given was he was really p***d off at what he called the NCRS '****s' that continually belittled him and his car at shows because this and that little thing was not correct, and he didn't know what he was doing.

This is not the TDB, but we have lost him for life. And he is a very nice and friendly guy, and he has a very nice car.

-Dan-

[Michael J.]

Re: Negativity

Last night I was at a local cruise show and there was a very nice 64 convertible there. In talking with the owner, he indicated that he would like to get some information about his car. For instance how many power window, radio delete FI cars were produced. I told him that NCRS could probably provide a lot of this information. He was quick to point out that he was in NCRS for several years. About 5 years ago he dropped out. The reason given was he was really p***d off at what he called the NCRS '****s' that continually belittled him and his car at shows because this and that little thing was not correct, and he didn't know what he was doing.

This is not the TDB, but we have lost him for life. And he is a very nice and friendly guy, and he has a very nice car.

-Dan-

That's not the first story I have heard like that. A guy near me has a beautiful '60 FI Cascade Green one, and he says the same thing as what you heard Dan, after he beat my '67 Top Flight in a car show recently. NCRS is not for everyone.

[Jim L.]

Re: Negativity

He was quick to point out that he was in NCRS for several years. About 5 years ago he dropped out. The reason given was he was really p***d off at what he called the NCRS '****s' that continually belittled him and his car at shows because this and that little thing was not correct, and he didn't know what he was doing.

A couple of judging experiences have permanently turned me away from ever having one of my cars judged again:

1. I entered my '60 FI for judging at a regional in, oh, '90 or '91 (don't remember which). An incredibly pompous windbag of a judge loudly proclaimed the unmolested pad on my car's original engine to be a re-stamp. It's not. It's a Real Deal "CS" engine.

2. I entered my '63 roadster for judging at a regional about 10 years ago. The Master Judge (and I'm using the term with extreme generosity) would not accept the original motor mount bolts or the original valve cover screws as correct for the car and was fairly obnoxious about informing me.

3. Later, at a judging event I had the misfortune to participate in the judging of a car belonging to the same Master Judge. That judge continually tried to influence the deductions I had deemed appropriate for the vehicle. That individual's behavior bordered on rude.

I'll be an NCRS member as long as I'm on this side of the grass because I appreciate the information I learn. Too, I'll help anyone I can who is having an issue with their old Corvette. Life is just too short, though, to have to tolerate the rude, pompous individuals I've encountered in my last judging experiences.

Back when I judged with Dr. Ed Gurdjian and back when Real Deal Master Judge Art Senn was alive, it wasn't like this. Those gentlemen (and that is a gross understatement) genuinely tried to be kind and helpful. And they were.

Jim

[Jim D.]

Re: Negativity

A couple of judging experiences have permanently turned me away from ever having one of my cars judged again:

1. I entered my '60 FI for judging at a regional in, oh, '90 or '91 (don't remember which). An incredibly pompous windbag of a judge loudly proclaimed the unmolested pad on my car's original engine to be a re-stamp. It's not. It's a Real Deal "CS" engine.

2. I entered my '63 roadster for judging at a regional about 10 years ago. The Master Judge (and I'm using the term with extreme generously) would not accept the original motor mount bolts or the original valve cover screws as correct for the car and was fairly obnoxious about informing me.

3. Later, at a judging event I had the misfortune to participate in the judging of a car belonging to the same Master Judge. That judge continually tried to influence the deductions I had deemed appropriate for the vehicle. That individual's behavior bordered on rude.

I'll be an NCRS member as long as I'm on this side of the grass because I appreciate the information I learn. Too, I'll help anyone I can who is having an issue with their old Corvette. Life is just too short, though, to have to tolerate the rude, pompous individuals I've encountered in my last judging experiences.

Back when I judged with Dr. Ed Gurdjian and back when Real Deal Master Judge Art Senn was alive, it wasn't like this. Those gentlemen (and that is a gross understatement) genuinely tried to be kind and helpful. And they were.

Jim

Very well stated Jim and I feel exactly the same way. Like you, I've been a member for a very long time but only for the information. I would NEVER have a car judged because of all the horror stories I've heard about the "all knowing" judges that think they are above us peons. I still think that in order to be a judge of a certain year, you must have done a complete restoration of that same year, and actually did the work instead of paying someone else, so you know what you're talking about. Reading a manual and thinking you're God just don't cut it.

Jim

[Dick W.]

Re: Negativity

A couple of judging experiences have permanently turned me away from ever having one of my cars judged again:

1. I entered my '60 FI for judging at a regional in, oh, '90 or '91 (don't remember which). An incredibly pompous windbag of a judge loudly proclaimed the unmolested pad on my car's original engine to be a re-stamp. It's not. It's a Real Deal "CS" engine.

2. I entered my '63 roadster for judging at a regional about 10 years ago. The Master Judge (and I'm using the term with extreme generously) would not accept the original motor mount bolts or the original valve cover screws as correct for the car and was fairly obnoxious about informing me.

3. Later, at a judging event I had the misfortune to participate in the judging of a car belonging to the same Master Judge. That judge continually tried to influence the deductions I had deemed appropriate for the vehicle. That individual's behavior bordered on rude.

I'll be an NCRS member as long as I'm on this side of the grass because I appreciate the information I learn. Too, I'll help anyone I can who is having an issue with their old Corvette. Life is just too short, though, to have to tolerate the rude, pompous individuals I've encountered in my last judging experiences.

Back when I judged with Dr. Ed Gurdjian and back when Real Deal Master Judge Art Senn was alive, it wasn't like this. Those gentlemen (and that is a gross understatement) genuinely tried to be kind and helpful. And they were.

Jim

Not hard to figure out who that was in #1, a legend in his own mind. Knowledgeable, but had the scruples of a whale turd.

There are way too many self processed experts in the old car hobby. There are a couple of recent threads that are good examples of that. I probably have been called one at times, but I would listen to the other side of the story unless it was a known "old wife's tale". I also learned there are very few absolutes in a mass produced product

[Steven B.]

Re: Negativity

I feel very fortunate in that I have not encountered rudeness but one time and that was from a fellow I did not judge his car and who admitted to the judges additions he made were incorrect before judging began but argued he should not lose points because he received a first place at a non-NCRS event. He did this in two separate events! I also have a friend who experienced a rude situation while his car was judged a couple of decades ago and he is not now a member. Our loss. All of the judges I have participated with have been very polite and never rude in my presence and the entrants, with the one exception were the same. I do feel bad in that two of us made a minimal mistake at an event judging but after I learned of it have tried very hard to be 150% thorough and accurate (sorry John). The Judging Retreat, past retreats, and at the beginning of each event we are always instructed to be courteous and thorough, with courtesy emphasized each time. No doubt this sometimes does not happen and there are all kinds of people but especially with the Retreat this year the approach was strongly emphasized to extend all courtesies and flexibility to each entrant and car. I would encourage all who have not judged to judge sometime and all who have not had their cars judged to have them judged. You learn a lot being in the other guy's shoes. As for me, NCRS members are the best people I know and I will be a member for life for the privilage of associating with you. Steve

[Mark D.]

Re: Negativity

I think I'm gonna be sick.

10% of every group are a##holes. Doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, sanitation engineers, etc. NCRS is the finest group of people I have ever been associated with, period. The world is politically correct enough so, let's just let everybody here be who they are without making a big deal out of it. Believe it or not, some may complain about how they were treated at a meet when, in all honesty, they were culpable.

Dickie...you and I have judged together how many times? A better judge I've never had the honor of judging with. Have we ever upset anyone? Hell yeah but, we always treated folks as we would hope to be treated. If you've had your feelings hurt, it's unfortunate and, you probably didn't deserve it but, suck it up, quit whining and concentrate on the positive.

One last thing...let's break down that word, 'expert'...x=unknown factor, Spirt=drips under pressure.

Lighten up

Kramden

[Dick W.]

Re: Negativity

I think I'm gonna be sick.

10% of every group are a##holes. Doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, sanitation engineers, etc. NCRS is the finest group of people I have ever been associated with, period. The world is politically correct enough so, let's just let everybody here be who they are without making a big deal out of it. Believe it or not, some may complain about how they were treated at a meet when, in all honesty, they were culpable.

Dickie...you and I have judged together how many times? A better judge I've never had the honor of judging with. Have we ever upset anyone? Hell yeah but, we always treated folks as we would hope to be treated. If you've had your feelings hurt, it's unfortunate and, you probably didn't deserve it but, suck it up, quit whining and concentrate on the positive.

One last thing...let's break down that word, 'expert'...x=unknown factor, Spirt=drips under pressure.

Lighten up

Kramden

Busdriver, Er Ralph Kramden, I ain't had my feelings hurt, but I have felt sorry for some of the owners that had purchased a hog with lipstick on it, not knowing any better. I always enjoyed the banter when we judged together, maybe the owner was not always happy, but at least they understood the call

I have witnessed the same arrogant attitudes in street rod shows, AACA, Early V-8 Club, etc. It is a shame as it turns members off but what do you do? Hello, I talked to a surgeon about doing my knee that was so sold on himself that I walked out during the exam. They are all walls of life

[Jerry B.]

Re: Negativity

I have shown cars for 15 years. You really need to have thick skin in order to have any fun. The best way to learn about a specfic year is to judge and have a good teacher.

[Mark D.]

Re: Negativity

Dickie,

I didn't mean you when I said you. I'm sorry...I was speaking in the third person. I know, you know the NCRS way better than I.

Your loyal 'Grasshopper'

Kramden

[Jim D.]

Re: Negativity

The best way to learn about a specfic year is to judge and have a good teacher.

Or maybe have ACTUAL experience on restoring what you're judging.

[Terry M.]

Re: Negativity

.... I still think that in order to be a judge of a certain year, you must have done a complete restoration of that same year, and actually did the work instead of paying someone else, so you know what you're talking about. Reading a manual and thinking you're God just don't cut it.

Jim

Well Jim, that lets me out. Never have done a Corvette restoration and I never will. Buy 'em new and keep 'em that way is my moto. And research data for several Judging Manuals along the way. Sorry I don't qualify to be in your club.

[Jim D.]

Re: Negativity

Never have done a Corvette restoration and I never will. .

Then, hopefully you're not judging cars you have no experience with.

[Don H.]

Re: Negativity

If all the judges in the club must have previously done a complete restoration of the year cars they judge you would have a pretty minute pool of judges to cover all the years of cars to be judged, at meets all over the country. And where would you find any judges at all for say the 73 to 96 cars? While I appreciate the spirit of the suggestion, I question its practicality in the real world.

[Terry M.]

Re: Negativity

Then, hopefully you're not judging cars you have no experience with.

Nope. I learned a long time ago not to judge mid-years -- the Regional at Osage Beach was my baptism. Back then if you brought a car to be judged you were expected to judge someone’s car, and since the rule about not judging your own car was in effect even then; it was 1967 here I come. And I was not unique in that situation. A lot of people found themselves like fish out of water. The Judging points system and Judges Training we have today has changed all that.

I was forced to assist in judging C1s at a Chapter meet last year, but I kept score and moved the process along. so perhaps the term "judging" is stretching things. Oh, once at another Chapter meet only a few years ago, after driving about 500 miles to get there, I found myself judging Mechanical in a class made up of a 1969, a 1978, and a 1995 -- at least I think those were the years. That day is a little foggy.

My point is I don't agree with you that one has to have done a restoration before being qualified as a Judge or Master Judge. A restoration (if done properly) will tell one about one car; or at best one year or partial year (given early and late production differences), but it will tell one nothing about the judging process nor will it give one any people skills. I have often told the members in the Advanced Judging Seminars that I can teach almost anyone the NCRS Judging process and others can teach the technical knowledge, but none of us can teach anyone people skills. One either has that or they don't. If they don't – go restore a car, but don’t judge. If someone without people skills judges no one will be happy.

Sorry this is so long – I could and I want say more, but it is way past my bed time -- again.