1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

[Marc S.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Marc, the standard is whether any or all parts of the pad look like they could have been stamped at the factory. Hence the term, "Typical Factory Production" (TFP). That's what NCRS judges and there is no certification or guarantee by NCRS that anything was done by the factory, only that it looks like it could have been done by the factory. Any loss of points would result from a judge's opinion that any anomolies are not TFP, and there are exceptions, as have been discussed above.

Paul

Well there we go! Certainly a restamp could get full points as long is it looks like the pad was stamped at the factory. So me being told that it would be authentic because the car got Top Flighted is baloney. Thank goodness I found this place. Thank you and best regards!

[Terry M.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

The Assembly stamping is worth 25 points
The VIN derivative stamping is worth 25 points
The stamp pad surface finish is worth 38 points

I am not aware of partial credit for these, maybe some are?

If all found NTFP, then 88 points gone, so you could still Top Flight, or even Duntov if everything else was perfect.

No partial credit on those three items, but one can lose all 38 points for the surface finish and still receive all 50 points for the stampings. So each item is all or nothing, but each of the three stands on its own. Am I making sense?

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

The judging does not stop if the engine pad stamps/surface are judged NTFP. There are deductions. Can a car with an engine pad judged NTFP, and thus the implication that it is not the engine the car was born with, make Top Flight? Absolutely, I know of several.

[Marc S.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

The judging does not stop if the engine pad stamps/surface are judged NTFP. There are deductions. Can a car with an engine pad judged NTFP, and thus the implication that it is not the engine the car was born with, make Top Flight? Absolutely, I know of several.

Wow, more misinformation that I received. I wonder why I was told this. I'll have to look up those old emails to make sure that is what I was told. Hmmmmm....Anyway not important. What is important is I am getting the facts. Thanks!

[Paul J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Well there we go! Certainly a restamp could get full points as long is it looks like the pad was stamped at the factory. So me being told that it would be authentic because the car got Top Flighted is baloney. Thank goodness I found this place. Thank you and best regards!

Here's one more thing that you might be interested in. All that the term "Matching Numbers" means, is that the numbers match. It can no longer be considered a statement of authenticity. You see this term at auctions and at sales, especially with Corvettes.

Paul

[Don H.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Wow, more misinformation that I received. I wonder why I was told this. I'll have to look up those old emails to make sure that is what I was told. Hmmmmm....Anyway not important. What is important is I am getting the facts. Thanks!

You were told this because the teller was mis-informed. There is so much mis-information out in the classic corvette world about how flight judging works, what matching numbers should mean, what flight awards mean, etc it's not funny. I would not bother to look back at old emails at all. What you were told was wrong. You are getting the straight scoop now. My recommendation is get involved in the judging program, first as OJ, then as judge and begin to build up your understanding. If you are also digging into your own classic vette at the same time, all the better.

[Marc S.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

You were told this because the teller was mis-informed. There is so much mis-information out in the classic corvette world about how flight judging works, what matching numbers should mean, what flight awards mean, etc it's not funny. I would not bother to look back at old emails at all. What you were told was wrong. You are getting the straight scoop now. My recommendation is get involved in the judging program, first as OJ, then as judge and begin to build up your understanding. If you are also digging into your own classic vette at the same time, all the better.

Yes, I need to get involved. That is a smart move. Thanks! Please check your private messages when you get a chance. Thanks.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

No partial credit on those three items, but one can lose all 38 points for the surface finish and still receive all 50 points for the stampings. So each item is all or nothing, but each of the three stands on its own. Am I making sense?

Yes Terry, thanks. But I am wondering how, logically (there goes that science background again), a judge could judge only one TFP? I mean, if the VIN stamp is NTFP, how can the pad surface be TFP if it had to be ground down to put a new VIN on it? I guess they assume it was an un-VIN-stamped pad that still had the engine assembly and date? Just struggling with the logic here of how they are really so independent. I know on my '67, they took it all off at regional, even though I had the tank sticker verifying engine, and the date was OK with the car build and engine casting date. I have also been told my pad broach marks "look good". Picture:

[Michael W.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

No partial credit on those three items, but one can lose all 38 points for the surface finish and still receive all 50 points for the stampings. So each item is all or nothing, but each of the three stands on its own. Am I making sense?

Yes but only cause it was beat it into me some years ago.

You were told this because the teller was mis-informed. There is so much mis-information out in the classic corvette world about how flight judging works, what matching numbers should mean, what flight awards mean, etc it's not funny. I would not bother to look back at old emails at all. What you were told was wrong. You are getting the straight scoop now. My recommendation is get involved in the judging program, first as OJ, then as judge and begin to build up your understanding. If you are also digging into your own classic vette at the same time, all the better.

Excellent advice. Seek out beatings by Terry in particular.

[Michael W.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Yes Terry, thanks. But I am wondering how, logically (there goes that science background again), a judge could judge only one TFP? I mean, if the VIN stamp is NTFP, how can the pad surface be TFP if it had to be ground down to put a new VIN on it?

The rules state that at least SOME of the original surface be visible, not all.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

I gladly provide judging standards beat downs at Regional and National events. Don't let the name Advanced Judging Seminar fool you. Very often there is little or nothing advanced about the session. And they are not just for people who have intentions of someday judging, although we prefer that. My merry band of helpers and I are happy to edumicate Corvette owners along with prospective judges on the finer points of the NCRS Judging System -- and believe me there are some very fine points. All NCRS members who are registered for the event are welcome.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

The rules state that at least SOME of the original surface be visible, not all.

OK, so what is the definition of "some"? 10%? 20% 30%? Not trying to argue, just searching for standards and guidelines as a novice judge.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Yes Terry, thanks. But I am wondering how, logically (there goes that science background again), a judge could judge only one TFP? I mean, if the VIN stamp is NTFP, how can the pad surface be TFP if it had to be ground down to put a new VIN on it? I guess they assume it was an un-VIN-stamped pad that still had the engine assembly and date? Just struggling with the logic here of how they are really so independent. I know on my '67, they took it all off at regional, even though I had the tank sticker verifying engine, and the date was OK with the car build and engine casting date. I have also been told my pad broach marks "look good". Picture:

There were some cylinder cases available from the parts department with an engine assembly stamp and no VIN stamp. Thus no VIN stamp or a poor attempt at duplicating the original VIN stamp could yield a 25 point deduction and the rest would be just fine. One also might have an engine from another Corvette in the car and thus the VIN derivative would be NTFP, but the rest of the pad TFP. In fact I judged an L88 (can't remember 1968 or 1969) that was just a stunning car but had another L88 engine in the car. I thanked the owner for NOT changing the VIN stamp, but made the 25 point deduction – per the rules. I hated to do it, but the owner understood the rules and expected it. There are 4510 total points, so 25, 50, or 88 is not a deal breaker -- but eatch step up makes the goal more difficult.

As Mike said there only has to be a bit of machining marks to pass the sniff test. And there have been times when I have asked the owner to “show me.” If they can = + 38 points.

Remember our standards are that it (whatever part it is) has to APPEAR to be TFP. Nowhere, for Flight Judging, does it say that it HAS TO BE TFP. The debates we have here and in the bars is what is the level of appearance that is necessary. Who’s buying the next round?

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

OK, thanks, that gives me some logic and experience to understand it all. I guess I had been under the impression that replacement blocks would have always been CEs, now I know you could get proper engine assembly suffixes and dates too. Thanks.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

OK, thanks, that gives me some logic and experience to understand it all. I guess I had been under the impression that replacement blocks would have always been CEs, now I know you could get proper engine assembly suffixes and dates too. Thanks.