Paint Color Judging

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Not so Michael. The standards are called Bowtie Award winners. The way to match your paint is before the car is painted. Spray some test panels and compare them to known original (Bowtie) cars. That is what those Bowtie cars are for, and why we have that program. Once you have a repainted car the toothpaste is out of the tube and the owner has to ride the horse they chose.

I hear you Terry, but some of those 4-5 star Bowtie cars have paint that is faded and checked pretty badly in my observations. Can they still be used as standards in that condition, or do you have to remove something to get to unfaded/unchecked paint? And if they are the standard (if fresh paint can be found), then why not produce a color chip that matches those unfaded/checked areas and use that for judging?

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Thanks Gene, I think we all wish this was as easy as say chassis....

[Terry M.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I hear you Terry, but some of those 4-5 star Bowtie cars have paint that is faded and checked pretty badly in my observations. Can they still be used as standards in that condition, or do you have to remove something to get to unfaded/unchecked paint? And if they are the standard (if fresh paint can be found), then why not produce a color chip that matches those unfaded/checked areas and use that for judging?

Not all Bowtie cars are equal; and yes some have more paint damage than others. There is also an age factor in that an older car will be more likely to have suffered damage to the paint. There may be some places that are more sheltered = door jambs, under deck lids or trunks. One may also have to network (on here among other places) to find the best paint example in the color you want. I have found the appropriate team leaders more than willing to direct me to the car(s) of the best quality. No one said it would be easy, but a little leg work will usually yield positive results.

As to color blind judges: I have had members tell me in the AJS they could never be an exterior judge because they are color blind. These members still want to learn about paint. Color is not the only factor in determining TFP for paint, however, I would expect someone who is color blind to avoid judging exterior unless the circumstances left no alternative. Kind of like I will not judge mid-years or C1s unless there is no alternative. A color blind owner still wants to learn about paint, and should do so. These learning sessions are not just for judges, as Gene has said.

[Robert K.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Bruce

I other item to check for possible color blindness would be 1 question on the test are you using a ED medication such as Viagra, etc. Which can cause in some individuals color blindness.

Well a few years back my right eye had cataract surgery. The eye doctor told me about how when we are 50 the eye only lets in 10% of the light it did when we were 20. That's why we can't tell the difference between dark blue and black pants hanging in the closet. Well 50 year old eyes tend to yellow. Now I see white and blue tint out of my right eye and brown and yellow tint out of my left. I guess I should ask which eye you want me to use when judging?

Second thought, how about the chips in the original dealer catalogs. I know for a fact that the Fawn Beige is right on in 1962. I also know that RM lacquer is too silver and that Dupont lacquer is too brown for Fawn Beige. I have no idea about the new paints.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Well a few years back my right eye had cataract surgery. The eye doctor told me about how when we are 50 the eye only lets in 10% of the light it did when we were 20. That's why we can't tell the difference between dark blue and black pants hanging in the closet. Well 50 year old eyes tend to yellow. Now I see white and blue tint out of my right eye and brown and yellow tint out of my left. I guess I should ask which eye you want me to use when judging?

Second thought, how about the chips in the original dealer catalogs. I know for a fact that the Fawn Beige is right on in 1962. I also know that RM lacquer is too silver and that Dupont lacquer is too brown for Fawn Beige. I have no idea about the new paints.

No matter what your eye conditions are, or what you see as a color, I still think that a standard color chip should be made, so that comparisons are as objective as possible and provable to participants, no matter what their eyes are telling them, a side by side comparison is convincing IMO. It works in other venues, not sure why NCRS resists this so much.

[Steven B.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

A lot of factors here. I spoke with a friend who is an opthamologist about this color thing and Bob said it is hard to find two people who see color exactly the same, and they often see them not even close, especially blues and greens. This not only goes for judges but painters and car owners, too. Years ago there was a color board at BG near the plant entrance with current and some proposed colors. I got to speak with one of the paint supervisors and asked about deviation on the line. I was told the same batch usually produces exact tone/reflection/etc. die to the humidity, pressure, temp., etc. stability of the new system but you could usually tell the difference, with a really good eye or instruments, between batches. With so many variables how many chips would we need per color, such as in the example of the two 396's? My '57 has some original Polo White on it in interior locations and has been garaged its life. My '78 SA has all original paint and has been garaged since it rolled off the truck. Over the years I have placed them next to same year, same color cars and could see the difference between them. I would like to have a scale, a color chip with all the known variations, but that is massive and there will always be some out there outside the scale with original paint. I have another friend who had a shop and judged paint for the ACD club. Jim explained to me the multiple differences in non-metallic black one day. Tough call.

Back to the OP. If you disagree with a deduction and it is not explained to your satisfaction bring it up at the review by the judges. If you still disagree we have a procedure where you can escalate your concerns at the meet.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

A lot of factors here. I spoke with a friend who is an opthamologist about this color thing and Bob said it is hard to find two people who see color exactly the same, and they often see them not even close, especially blues and greens. This not only goes for judges but painters and car owners, too. Years ago there was a color board at BG near the plant entrance with current and some proposed colors. I got to speak with one of the paint supervisors and asked about deviation on the line. I was told the same batch usually produces exact tone/reflection/etc. die to the humidity, pressure, temp., etc. stability of the new system but you could usually tell the difference, with a really good eye or instruments, between batches. With so many variables how many chips would we need per color, such as in the example of the two 396's? My '57 has some original Polo White on it in interior locations and has been garaged its life. My '78 SA has all original paint and has been garaged since it rolled off the truck. Over the years I have placed them next to same year, same color cars and could see the difference between them. I would like to have a scale, a color chip with all the known variations, but that is massive and there will always be some out there outside the scale with original paint. I have another friend who had a shop and judged paint for the ACD club. Jim explained to me the multiple differences in non-metallic black one day. Tough call.

Back to the OP. If you disagree with a deduction and it is not explained to your satisfaction bring it up at the review by the judges. If you still disagree we have a procedure where you can escalate your concerns at the meet.

Thanks Steven, well said and I appreciate all the nuances of color as well, having been through some experiences there as well. I think leeway is necessary (the 20%+- that Ballard mentioned sounds good), and I am assuming the judges use some, just not sure what is in the standard they are applying from their memories in their heads to set that midpoint. It's probably no big deal, just as I am going through my punch-list of items to fix on the car from the judging sheets, this one seems impossible to deal with, and it is 16 points. Guess I will just move on, but I am now curious about questioning it next time. I would like an explanation if it happens again, I will settle for that and go away, at least then I will have a chance to understand their logic. Cheers!

[Paul S.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

[ATTACH=CONFIG]48003[/ATTACH] interesting reading. How many points, on paint, do you think my son will loose if he gets his "63 roadster judged?( see photo ) i think it's too "red " for riverside red, myself.

[Steven B.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

[ATTACH=CONFIG]48003[/ATTACH] interesting reading. How many points, on paint, do you think my son will loose if he gets his "63 roadster judged?( see photo ) i think it's too "red " for riverside red, myself.

Paul, the 3X34 on the scoop is not factory paint and that will do him in. Sorry. Has he thought about Sportsman?

[Steve B.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I had a low mile '67 green car with a hard top. The paint under the hard top window was a much darker color than the remainder of the car for some reason. I now have an original paint maroon '67 with a hard top. The same thing has happened to the paint under the hard top window on this car. Original paint in both places, but the color has faded differently.

Tim, I have seen some low mile original paint 67s in red that have definitely faded over the years and now have a bit more of an orange tint to it.