1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

[John S.]

At the Texas regional I got deducts for my glove box lock in Ops check. Judges said key should not come out if it is turned part way in lock. I could find no mention of that in judging manual, just says lock to latch and unlatch smoothly which mine does. Can anyone give me clarification on this one and how one would know what is proper from tech manual and guide?

[Ara G.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

John, the glove box key should operate the same as an original ignition switch. If either keys is turned part way, neither key should be able to come out. This happens a lot with ignition switches and ignition keys. They wear out, and also the replacements do not have 2 brass pins, but rather just one. Thus, they can be removed while engaged/turned. Proper functioning lock should not allow the key to be removed when it's turned...I think that's what the judges were referring to. Hope you made it back safely...kudo's to you and loooooong drive in that very nice car....ARA

[John S.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

Understand, just not listed in the guide to know about that. Just says lock to operate smoothly and lock and unlock, which mine does properly. After hauling car each way 1100 miles was not happy on the items that I had no idea about after reading the guide and thought I was prepared properly. Too many small details that are not listed for one to get things correct if they are to be judged.

[Ara G.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

John, you were prepared well. Great car. The JM is the best yet, however it can't cover everything that an item shouldn't do as well as what it should do. Operations are tougher items to write on compared to seeing in person. Why don't you think of being an observer judge at a local meet....That's how I got started...It's a WONDERFUL experience and you learn a LOT. A judge will be able to show and explain to you during the ops check what he/she expects to see and what not to. Thanks so much for bringing your car and also thanks for letting me judge it's chassis. The old adage of "a picture is worth a thousand words" is only topped by "seeing in person is worth a thousand pictures". Hope to see you and your car at future meets. Regards. ARA

[John S.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

Ara, Had the car judged at chapter meet the week before, and none of the items were listed at all there, car judged 99.3 at chapter, far different than the regional of course. Just had hoped going there would have provided some insight for corrections needed to be ready for regional. And the fact they gave me 88 point deduct on engine stamp pad at regional for one that has been approved by Derrick Smith and Gary Nabors is also disconcerting to me. Just seems like a wide range of judging views from chapter to regional and from other very knowledgeable people. I thought I was prepared and had things done pretty well. Minor stuff I can fix, but not a stamp pad deduct that others have approved of. How does one deal with that?

[Dick W.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

Ara, Had the car judged at chapter meet the week before, and none of the items were listed at all there, car judged 99.3 at chapter, far different than the regional of course. Just had hoped going there would have provided some insight for corrections needed to be ready for regional. And the fact they gave me 88 point deduct on engine stamp pad at regional for one that has been approved by Derrick Smith and Gary Nabors is also disconcerting to me. Just seems like a wide range of judging views from chapter to regional and from other very knowledgeable people. I thought I was prepared and had things done pretty well. Minor stuff I can fix, but not a stamp pad deduct that others have approved of. How does one deal with that?

Your recourse at the meet would have been your team leader. If you could not come to an agreement with the team leader, then you go to the event judging chair, and a last stop with the National Judging Chairperson, Dave Brigham. After the meet you have no recourse. Spelled out in the Judging Reference Manual.

Many times it is a large step from Chapter to Regional judging. There is a tendency to be more lenient at the chapter level, which I think does the owner a disservice. The level of knowledge increases exponentially from chapter to regional.

[John S.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

Understand all that, however I felt the judges are far more knowledgeable than I am, so did not challenge them. In hindsight I should have. For example they gave me deducts for orange paint on the carb intake studs. I had recently seen where the 'mask' did allow for some paint to be on those studs, the 67 team leader agreed with me then, but it was long after the judging sheets had been signed, so I got the deducts from judges who were not correct on that item. Guess if there is a next time I need to be a lot more forceful to them, but I am a novice and did not challenge them on this go around. They seemed so adamant and exact in their views, what could I say? Seems like if Gary Nabors and Derrick Smith felt my stamp pad was good the judges should too, but not the case. Maybe theses judges do not know about the place holder straight spot @ 5 o'clock for under 10000! Seems as all my research and efforts were wasted with the loss of 88 points there.

[Ronald C.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

This is an interesting item. At the MN regional last earlier this month numerous cars took a deduction for both the glove box key coming out when turned 45 degrees and for the ignition key fitting into the spare tire lock. These deducts came during OPS check and not a PV... after some discussion Dave Bringham decided that this deduct on 65-66 OPS check was incorrect. I can not speak to the 67 as there was some discussion that 67 was different then 67 in the keys/tumblers. Not sure how to go with this as nationals are right around the corner.

[Michael C.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

I had my 67 judged at the MN regional. I am waiting on the judging sheets to be mailed back. I did discuss this with the Ops judges and even though my glovebox key do pull out of the lock at 45 degrees I don't recall them deducting points for that. I will verify when the sheets are reviewed.

Mike C.

[Brian M.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

How much of a deduct was taken?

[Kenneth B.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

Understand all that, however I felt the judges are far more knowledgeable than I am, so did not challenge them. In hindsight I should have. For example they gave me deducts for orange paint on the carb intake studs. I had recently seen where the 'mask' did allow for some paint to be on those studs, the 67 team leader agreed with me then, but it was long after the judging sheets had been signed, so I got the deducts from judges who were not correct on that item. Guess if there is a next time I need to be a lot more forceful to them, but I am a novice and did not challenge them on this go around. They seemed so adamant and exact in their views, what could I say? Seems like if Gary Nabors and Derrick Smith felt my stamp pad was good the judges should too, but not the case. Maybe theses judges do not know about the place holder straight spot @ 5 o'clock for under 10000! Seems as all my research and efforts were wasted with the loss of 88 points there.

IT's starting to sound the judging at NCRS meets are like the judging at ice skating. US judge gives 9.9 Russian judge gives 4.5. John I agree it is frustrating & this engine pad thing has to change. if not everyone will have to pay AL ( the only one I gather who's word is gospel to OK their pad) so this is not a pissing match every one gets a Corvette judged. If it keeps up people will stop bringing Corvettes to be judged. Just a thought form a old-timer who turns 70 tomorrow. Remember it's supposed to be fun not frustrating like golf.

[Arland D.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

John,

There is a big diffeence between OPS and PV expectations, thresholds, requirements, etc. It would appear that from time to time some judges move off the OPS guidelines and venture into PV territory. If the glovebox function locks and unlocks as expected of a new car delivery, that should meet OPS requirements. The key withdrawal at partial positioning deduction is meandering into PV territory.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

IT's starting to sound the judging at NCRS meets are like the judging at ice skating. US judge gives 9.9 Russian judge gives 4.5. John I agree it is frustrating & this engine pad thing has to change. if not everyone will have to pay AL ( the only one I gather who's word is gospel to OK their pad) so this is not a pissing match every one gets a Corvette judged. If it keeps up people will stop bringing Corvettes to be judged. Just a thought form a old-timer who turns 70 tomorrow. Remember it's supposed to be fun not frustrating like golf.

Be careful grasshopper.

Edit add: Happy Birthday and many more Ken.

[Gary B.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

This is an interesting item. At the MN regional last earlier this month numerous cars took a deduction for both the glove box key coming out when turned 45 degrees and for the ignition key fitting into the spare tire lock. These deducts came during OPS check and not a PV... after some discussion Dave Bringham decided that this deduct on 65-66 OPS check was incorrect. I can not speak to the 67 as there was some discussion that 67 was different then 67 in the keys/tumblers. Not sure how to go with this as nationals are right around the corner.

Ron,

GM cars from 1935 to 1966 used a key with one groove pattern, the so-called groove 15 keyway. So any GM key from those 32 years will insert into any groove 15 lock.

Starting in '67, new keyways (groove designs) were introduced for GM cars, the so-called letter keys. For '67, the A keyway key was used for the doors and ignition and the A key will not insert into B keyway lock cylinders, which is what the glove box lock and spare tire lock used. And no '66 or earlier groove 15 key will insert into any of the '67 and later locks, nor vice versa.

Gary

[Daniel Y.]

Re: 1967 Ops check- glove box lock/key

I was one of the judges on ops 67 in Rochester and there was no deduction taken but noted on the sheets. We let owners know when we come across some items that pass operations may not pass on PV. In doing so, there is no false exceptions when a PV is done and a failure occurs.