What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

[Marc S.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Pilgrim! I love that! How many judging points do I have to earn to be able to use that word to reply to someone?

[Terry M.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Mike,
Perhaps because I have been at this so long I am used to the way the cylinder case is judged. I was a Team Leader when we settled on this method for all classes so that every Corvette cylinder case is worth 350 points, and the parts of it are divided in this manner for almost every class. At that time our goal was to make all the cylinder cases worth the same number of points and make the judging of it the same for all classes. Since some C1 Corvettes do not have a VIN derivative stamped on the pad that assessment is different than it is in other classes. I suspect that the C4 judging sheets have some variation as well since that VIN derivative is not on the machined pad. When this part of the score sheets was written we had to be mindful of that C1 difference, and we were not judging C4s. It has since been edited, and if Dave Brigham wishes it can be again. Regardless these differences in those classes the entire cylinder case is still worth 350 points for those cars as well. Perhaps you should send Dave your suggestions for modification of this section. It is the same for all C2 and C3 score sheets, but I am not sure how the C1 and C4 score sheets are for this area, except the total points are the same. There is usually a Team Leaders meeting just prior to the Kissimmee meet so this might be an opportune time for you to communicate you suggestions to Dave.

[Terry M.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Someone asked about the guy that opened this can of worms? I haven't seen him. now I am getting nervous. All these knowledgeable and experienced folks trying to figure things out. How am I gonna figure it out? Ill be easy to find though. I will be the guy with the confused face trying to figure out how not to break a pencil lead writing. Taking a deep breath saying everything will be okay.

Take your time Marc. You don't have to figure all this out in one meet. There are people posting on here, and not necessarily me either, who have a lot of experience at this judging game. You asked a broad question and between the humor we have unloaded on you. That may not be fair to you, but remember you asked the question. Also remember the goal of all this is to have fun - whether you are the car owner, a spectator, a judge, or an OJ. Along the way we hope to learn a thing or two about Corvettes, but the fun part should be the most important.

BTW: Up above you asked about how many judges there are. Vinnie gave you the broad answer, but in each class there will be around 10 judges and a Team Leader. For each section of the car (Interior, Exterior, Chassis, and Engine) there will be two judges. There are also two and sometimes three for the Operations section. There is a maximum of eight cars per class, but there can sometimes be only one, or any number in between depending on the cars registered for the event. If the meet Judging Chairman has enough registrations in a given class (many more than eight) he/she can decide to split the class into two groups and judge a group each day of the meet. In that case neither group can be greater than 8 cars.

The Team Leader selects the judges from the people who indicate they want to judge when they register. Those selections are made several weeks or a month before the meet. As to OJs, as I think has been covered above, it is pretty much a "walk-on" part. When you get your registration credentials at the meet you will receive a final meet agenda. It will contain a time for OJ meeting each day of judging and also will have the final list of which classes will be judged on which day. In Florida the OJs meeting is usually on the judging field by the Judging Tent - weather permitting. If weather becomes an issue there is usually an announcement regarding that made at the Thursday evening Welcoming event. For that reason it would be prudent for you to attend the Welcome event Thursday evening.

[Michael W.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Mike,
............ Perhaps you should send Dave your suggestions for modification of this section. It is the same for all C2 and C3 score sheets, but I am not sure how the C1 and C4 score sheets are for this area, except the total points are the same. There is usually a Team Leaders meeting just prior to the Kissimmee meet so this might be an opportune time for you to communicate you suggestions to Dave.

Mike me?

The consistent 350 points total makes perfect sense. All that's required is a minor editorial change to modify "If incorrect, deduct xxx & do not judge or score C or D below" (as used on the C2 sheets) to "If incorrect, deduct xxx & do not judge or score C, D or E below" on the C3 sheets.

The '78-'82 sheets that read "Absence of paint, rust, grease, dirt or other conditions which obscures pad & presence of normal factory machining marks " need a tiny edit to remove the word 'paint'.

I won't be at the Kissimmee meet due to family commitments. I'll delegate some upstart named Marc to approach Dave with the request while he's clearing the bar tab.

[Marc S.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Take your time Marc. You don't have to figure all this out in one meet. There are people posting on here, and not necessarily me either, who have a lot of experience at this judging game. You asked a broad question and between the humor we have unloaded on you. That may not be fair to you, but remember you asked the question. Also remember the goal of all this is to have fun - whether you are the car owner, a spectator, a judge, or an OJ. Along the way we hope to learn a thing or two about Corvettes, but the fun part should be the most important.BTW: Up above you asked about how many judges there are. Vinnie gave you the broad answer, but in each class there will be around 10 judges and a Team Leader. For each section of the car (Interior, Exterior, Chassis, and Engine) there will be two judges. There are also two and sometimes three for the Operations section. There is a maximum of eight cars per class, but there can sometimes be only one, or any number in between depending on the cars registered for the event. If the meet Judging Chairman has enough registrations in a given class (many more than eight) he/she can decide to split the class into two groups and judge a group each day of the meet. In that case neither group can be greater than 8 cars.The Team Leader selects the judges from the people who indicate they want to judge when they register. Those selections are made several weeks or a month before the meet. As to OJs, as I think has been covered above, it is pretty much a "walk-on" part. When you get your registration credentials at the meet you will receive a final meet agenda. It will contain a time for OJ meeting each day of judging and also will have the final list of which classes will be judged on which day. In Florida the OJs meeting is usually on the judging field by the Judging Tent - weather permitting. If weather becomes an issue there is usually an announcement regarding that made at the Thursday evening Welcoming event. For that reason it would be prudent for you to attend the Welcome event Thursday evening.

Thank you for this detailed response. I am totally fine but you did make me feel much better!!!!! I am counting the days till the meet. I am so excited to drive my new pride and joy to the meet. Everything else I consider a bonus for me. I am gonna learn a lot and enjoy.

[Marc S.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Scoring sheets up to and including '67 read as you describe- A,B,C,D, With C being engine assembly code AND VIN derivative. D is pad surface. From '68 onwards, C is assembly stamp, D is VIN derivative and a newly introduced E is pad surface. Makes no never mind except that the instructions "If incorrect, deduct xxx & do not judge or score C or D below" no longer make sense. Since the revision date of the sheets is 2002, I'm amazed that no one caught this. While we're nit-picking, the '78-'82 sheets on line E specify "Absence of paint, rust, grease, dirt or other conditions which obscures pad & presence of normal factory machining marks " which earlier sheets do not. Again, makes no never mind except that pads came from the with a coat of paint on the. Since it's Marc's post that brought all this up, I vote that he not be forced to buy lunches for all the the judges and just pick up the bar tab instead.

I guess this is better than a line up of ncrs guys taking turns breaking in my new 1971 baby banging through the gears in the parking lot in order to show the newbie a thing or two. Haha I will need to bring my american express card to cover the bar tab.

[Terry M.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Mike me?

The consistent 350 points total makes perfect sense. All that's required is a minor editorial change to modify "If incorrect, deduct xxx & do not judge or score C or D below" (as used on the C2 sheets) to "If incorrect, deduct xxx & do not judge or score C, D or E below" on the C3 sheets.

The '78-'82 sheets that read "Absence of paint, rust, grease, dirt or other conditions which obscures pad & presence of normal factory machining marks " need a tiny edit to remove the word 'paint'.

I won't be at the Kissimmee meet due to family commitments. I'll delegate some upstart named Marc to approach Dave with the request while he's clearing the bar tab.

No not you Mikie. Michael Johnson. With almost 200 responses to Marc's simple question there are too many people involved for me to make the mistake of using only first names. I tried to keep it informal, but in doing so only mixed it up.

Hey, how about we all show up at the Blue Max so Marc can treat all of us? I promise to stick to Diet -- unless that bus driver corrupts me again.

[Marc S.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

I have more questions. It would appear from the pics the judges discuss the cars with the owners. Do the owners find out there on the spot any deductions the car gets? If so what if the owner disagrees? Does that happen? What happens now?

[Michael J.]

[Terry M.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

I have more questions. It would appear from the pics the judges discuss the cars with the owners. Do the owners find out there on the spot any deductions the car gets? If so what if the owner disagrees? Does that happen? What happens now?

Ah Marc, to have the NCRS Judging Reference Manual then you wouldn't get this in dribbles. This is a Cliff Notes version:
As the judges make deductions they are supposed to make notes on the score sheet why they are making the deductions. There is an entire shorthand for that, but the judges you OJ with will explain that to you.

After the judges finish their section they review the sheets to be sure they have scored all the line items and place their names on the score sheets.

Then they review the score sheets with the owner and he/she initials them.

Then the score sheets go to the Team Leader for his review and signature.

The Team Leader turns them in to the Meet Judging Chairman who signs them and turns them in to the Tabulators. (Some meet chairs prefer the sheets to be tabulated first and then they sign them. Either way is OK)

The Tabulators determine if the car gets Top, Second or Third Flight and that Award is announced at the Awards Ceremony and the appropriate ribbon is given to the owner there.

For a Regional or National event the National makes up a numbered certificate showing the appropriate Award and that certificate with the score sheets is sent to the registered owner in the weeks after the meet. Regional & National Award results are printed in The Restorer.

The key message here is the only person who knows the actual numerical score and has the score sheets is the owner. And the owners do not get their score sheets at the meet so they cannot compare cars (No: "My car is better than your car.") at the meet. This reinforces the idea that the car is judged against a theoretical standard, as described in the Judging Manual, and not against another car. That is why there is no "Best of Show" and no "First Place" and so on.

[Terry M.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

We all look at cars and score sheets differently. That is why there are two judges for each section. The theory is their differing views will offset each other, and the more sets of eyes the more likely defects are to be found. The thoughts and opinions of someone who has not "grown up" with the existing system are valuable. Occasionally we do need to take a fresh look at what we are doing.

Dave has a large task to take on, so do not get discouraged. Most of us do not know of all the "behind the scenes" tasks the National Team Leader does. It really is a full time job, and I think Dave still has another of those. Trust me, even though he has not posted to this lengthy thread, he is reading it in his "spare" time.

I too have on occasion regretted the lack of condition points for the cylinder case. Fortunately not very often, but that is one place we may be lacking an opportunity, and I don't know where else one could make that deduction.

[Patrick H.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

I will be the guy with the confused face trying to figure out how not to break a pencil lead writing.

That's why I suggested a mechanical pencil and a good eraser. Invaluable tools for a judge or OJ.

[Marc S.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

That's why I suggested a mechanical pencil and a good eraser. Invaluable tools for a judge or OJ.

Already packed so I don't forget.

[John H.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

.....................which still leaves "E" to be judged.

There's no "E" on midyear judging sheets.

[David P.]

Re: What can I expect being an Observer Judge at a NCRS event?

Marc Check out photo #2 in reply #3 judge to the far right that is Mr. Shorts of this posting https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...-Shifter-Knobs. If you are doing Chassis OJ be careful when on the ground he will step on you and do not I repeat do not look up. Do not ask how I know this. Also the judge in the first photo and the to the far left in the second is a Bus driver (Ralph) he will also step on you. Both are very DANGER'S so be very careful around ether on the judging field.

Also be careful if attending the Advanced Judging Seminar of the bearded one he is also danger's no photo necessary you will know him on sight.

I need another week to catch my breath from laughing. Paul, you kill me.