Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

[Harry S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

The easiest way answer all of these questions is to consider the above. Even if NCRS awards were considered an "authentication" (they aren't), there is no way that "authentication" could be guaranteed to have ANY value after the car leaves the judging field. Virtually every part on the car is easily removable and many rare ones quickly disappear after judging. Its not unusual to see a high point car lose many of its rare parts before its next sale even though its touted during the sale as "Top Flight". NCRS can't control that.

Mike, I agree. All the parts that are easily stolen have been removed from my 63 after flight judging. Just think what happened at Carlisle a few years back to the display cars. Lot's of expensive items grew legs.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

All you NCRS people including me can dance all they want to but the judging process is as similar to an authentication process as you are going to find!!!!

When you judge on the basis of originality, condition and cleanliness what would you call the judging process. A crap shoot?

That is why the NCRS is at Barrett_Jackson!!! To supply bidders with the proof that the auto has been judged by the NCRS to be Top Flight, Second or Third!

The owners of these Corvettes expect the price to increase if the Corvette passes the NCRS judging process!!!!

And it does!!!!!!

JR

If NCRS at BJ provides proof that the car has been judged and achieved a specific flight status that does not mean the car at that time and place would judge the same.
I have loaned parts to friends for judging purposes and after judging got them back, so at that time the car was no longer a Top Fight (or second or third flight) car.
So what is the proof worth? The paper it is written on...

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

If NCRS at BJ provides proof that the car has been judged and achieved a specific flight status that does not mean the car at that time and place would judge the same.
I have loaned parts to friends for judging purposes and after judging got them back, so at that time the car was no longer a Top Fight (or second or third flight) car.
So what is the proof worth? The paper it is written on...

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Hello, I have recently attended my very first NCRS event which was held in Kissimmee. I enjoyed my time there very much. I learned, heard, and met many wonderful people. I took some classes and observer judged at the event as well as had my car in the Sportsman section. Based on my experience I have decided to get my car judged. My plan is to find items that are easily attainable and do the best I can without going nuts. I seem to be confused as to if the NCRS authenticates cars or not. It appears to me that this is indeed an authentication process. The reason I say this is so much importance IS given on originality. That is the first thing that is judged. If any part of the car being judged gets at least 10% in the originality section then you loose all condition points for that part. I like to review some definitions here:

Original: "present or existing from the beginning; first or earliest."
"something serving as a model or basis for imitations or copies."

Authentic: "not false or copied; genuine, real."
"Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied"

Authenticate: "validate"

With that said, the process does appear to be a form of authentication? Generally every part in the judging sheets gets validated for originality. All defnitions above apply here.

I like to know what others think. Is this a form of authentication? I have seen at least one person say that the NCRS does no authenticate cars. Please educate what the difference is if I am missing something regarding how cars are judged here.

Let's start here and see where this goes. I really like some clarification. Thanks.

"Authentication" is not an appropriate term for any NCRS blahblahvication "honors". For a car to earn "blahblahvication", it simply has to "APPEAR" as it did when it left the factory. This does not "authenticate" anything. In fact, bragging rights are in play for items that are faked by a savvy restorer, in order to dupe the "judges" into thinking that they appear as aborigional, and, in fact, are not detected by "judges".

However, not all faked items are created equal and "intent to deceive" is not applied equally. Case in point:

Two hypothetical 1967 cars, neither of which are accompanied by any documentation attesting to origin. "CAR A" cars was originally a red/black 327/300 car with Powerglide which shows up at a "cornvention" with a replacement 427/435 engine whose stamp pad was spotted as being reproduced. This car is an otherwise perfect restoration and goes on to earn a Duntov Award. There is no assumption made of "intent to deceive". "CAR B", originally green/green vinyl and equipped with a 327/300 and Powerglide shows up at a "cornvention" as a red/red leather with 327/300 Powerglide car and a reproduction trim tag. Upon discovery that the TT is reproduction (although it varies from production to the same degree that the first car's stamp pad did), the car is disqualified from judging, the owner is forced to stand in the corner wearing a large, pointed dunce cap, and the car is forever branded as "COUNTERFEIT". The owner thereafter has a scarlet letter "F" (fraud) emblazoned on his chest (for you idiots that don't make the connection, can you say; "Nathaniel Hawthorne"?).

Simply stated, a reproduction trim tag assumes fraud while a reproduction engine stamp pad does not. The intent to deceive was the same in both instances, but the assumption of guilt was not applied equally.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

"Authentication" is not an appropriate term for any NCRS blahblahvication "honors". For a car to earn "blahblahvication", it simply has to "APPEAR" as it did when it left the factory. This does not "authenticate" anything. In fact, bragging rights are in play for items that are faked by a savvy restorer, in order to dupe the "judges" into thinking that they appear as aborigional, and, in fact, are not detected by "judges".

However, not all faked items are created equal and "intent to deceive" is not applied equally. Case in point:

Two hypothetical 1967 cars, neither of which are accompanied by any documentation attesting to origin. "CAR A" cars was originally a red/black 327/300 car with Powerglide which shows up at a "cornvention" with a replacement 427/435 engine whose stamp pad was spotted as being reproduced. This car is an otherwise perfect restoration and goes on to earn a Duntov Award. There is no assumption made of "intent to deceive". "CAR B", originally green/green vinyl and equipped with a 327/300 and Powerglide shows up at a "cornvention" as a red/red leather with 327/300 Powerglide car and a reproduction trim tag. Upon discovery that the TT is reproduction (although it varies from production to the same degree that the first car's stamp pad did), the car is disqualified from judging, the owner is forced to stand in the corner wearing a large, pointed dunce cap, and the car is forever branded as "COUNTERFEIT". The owner thereafter has a scarlet letter "F" (fraud) emblazoned on his chest (for you idiots that don't make the connection, can you say; "Nathaniel Hawthorne"?).

Simply stated, a reproduction trim tag assumes fraud while a reproduction engine stamp pad does not. The intent to deceive was the same in both instances, but the assumption of guilt was not applied equally.

Joe - you are 100% wrong, detected altered engine configurations are branded counterfeit just as detected changed trim tags are. Accusations carry no weight - show me the proof what you say is fact, where is the Duntov 435 that started life as a powerglide 300? Do mistakes get made I'm sure they do. After all most of us are only human.

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Joe - you are 100% wrong, detected altered engine configurations are branded counterfeit just as detected changed trim tags are. Accusations carry no weight - show me the proof what you say is fact, where is the Duntov 435 that started life as a powerglide 300? Do mistakes get made I'm sure they do. After all most of us are only human.

Roy,

How many times have we heard the joking phrase about rare 1967 327/300 cars.....reason being is that most original 327/300 cars are now 427/435 cars? Same goes for L88 cars. Not all of these counterfeits have gone through NCRS judging, but many have............and "flown". Some of these have probably gone on to become Duntov cars, and many more have probably gone on, with the help of high dollar restorers, to become high dollar sales, either in Mecum, BJ, or on the big "players' collections. You want proof of engine changes, well, there is no proof if the deception is done properly. Just as there is no proof that some cars have lost their original trim tags due to damage, accident, salvage, or other process.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Roy,

How many times have we heard the joking phrase about rare 1967 327/300 cars.....reason being is that most original 327/300 cars are now 427/435 cars? Same goes for L88 cars. Not all of these counterfeits have gone through NCRS judging, but many have............and "flown". You want proof of engine changes, well, there is no proof. Just as there is no proof that some cars have lost their original trim tags due to damage, accident, salvage, or other process.

Joe that is exactly why burden of proof is with the owner, their are Duntov cars with no trim tag, that could meet the burden of proof and there are Duntov 435's that met it also, heck even my 300hp 65 made it through the Duntov its not quite 500hp though.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Roy,
Check your PM,s
Bruce B

[Bruce B.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Roy,
Check your email.
Bruce B

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Joe that is exactly why burden of proof is with the owner, their are Duntov cars with no trim tag, that could meet the burden of proof and there are Duntov 435's that met it also, heck even my 300hp 65 made it through the Duntov its not quite 500hp though.

Roy,

There is no burden of proof necessary for any hypothetical 427/435 car that goes through judging. If the stamp pad surface is judged to be NTP, but everything else on the car does not otherwise disqualify it as being authentic, then the car must pass judging with (27 point?) deduction for stamp pad surface.

[Terry M.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Let's start here and see where this goes. I really like some clarification. Thanks.

You had to post this when there were a bunch of comercials that in between had a football game break out. You have a remarkable sense of timing.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Roy,

There is no burden of proof necessary for any hypothetical 427/435 car that goes through judging. If the stamp pad surface is judged to be NTP, but everything else on the car does not otherwise disqualify it as being authentic, then the car must pass judging with (27 point?) deduction for stamp pad surface.

Joe,

you should attempt that explanation to those members that had their car branded counterfeit for a horsepower alteration, that did not meet the burden of proof. By the way there is no 27 point assignment to any part of the engine pad that I am aware of, and I was involved for a few years. Enough said.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

You're confusing 'factory correct' as in TFP with 'original born with'.

Okay I been reading the replies carefully and I think I am starting to get things to start making sense.

There are some replies that are still over my head but that is OKAY....keep writing as this is good information and I will eventually get it.

In regards to my confusion. I think I seeing the light on this part.....

I was my thinking that original means born with this car....exactly what you were suggesting. In actuality the NCRS identifies parts as typical factory production.
Therefore, let's say I find a RC-26 cap to replace the reproduction on my car. Even though this was not the born with this car ORIGINAL PART it is a typical factory production part which could end up scoring full points on Originality and Condition.

Same example would be for a 1971 gas cap. You find you have a repro on your car. The born with this cap is GONE. But you find an actual original one in a junkyard that was born in a DIFFERENT car. You put this one on your own car and this would be classified as typical factory production. Even though you know as the owner it was not born with this car the NCRS judges on typical factory production and if this gas cap conforms to that and is in good condition, full points could be awarded on this part even though it was not born with the car.

The above examples do NOT authenticate anything. I get that now......

Does the NCRS authenticate the trim tag and Vin Pillar before judging? It seems Mike Ward said these are two items that are authenticated. The trim tag and VIN pillar. Now are these items have to BE BORN ON THIS CAR? If the trim tag is REAL and the VIN PILLAR is real but was switched out to a car that was restored would this still pass as typical factory production? This would be the same thing as the situation above as the radiator cap and gas cap......

I am gonna stop here for now as I am now getting into complex territory as the other members have entered. I am not ready to enter that room just yet. I must understand the basics first. Thanks!

[Michael G.]

[Dick W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Does the NCRS authenticate the trim tag and Vin Pillar before judging? Now are these items have to BE BORN ON THIS CAR? If the trim tag is REAL and the VIN PILLAR is real but was switched out to a car that was restored would this still pass as typical factory production?

Marc, team leader makes that call. If detected NTFP they would be branded. There probably have been cars that have gone trough the system with that done, but if detected, out the door they go.