C1 fuel problem

[Joseph U.]

Went to start up the 1960 yesterday and it was a no-go.
Engine turned over just fine but no start. There is fuel in the tank and fuel in the line to the fuel pump. Also fuel in the glass bowel to the 2x4 carbs. But no fuel in the carb when I pump the accelerator. What do you think, "Fuel pump"? Anyway to test this out before going thru the work of replacing the pump? I searched the archives and this does not look too easy (or too hard either - if you can control the push rod it would seem). Thanks for the advice.
Joe

[Mike M.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

pour a small amount of gas directly into the rear carb with the choke and throttle plates open. then see if it fires for a moment or so.if it fires for a couple seconds, i suspect the leather /neoprene of the accelerator pump isn't pumping gas into the engine. could be bad leather/or neoprene . also could be the gas in the carb evaporated since the last time u started it, in which case it'll take some spinning of the engine to move fuel from filter into carb. good liuck.mike

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

pour a small amount of gas directly into the rear carb with the choke and throttle plates open. then see if it fires for a moment or so.if it fires for a couple seconds, i suspect the leather /neoprene of the accelerator pump isn't pumping gas into the engine. could be bad leather/or neoprene . also could be the gas in the carb evaporated since the last time u started it, in which case it'll take some spinning of the engine to move fuel from filter into carb. good liuck.mike

Hi Mike,
That was the first thing that I did and yes - fired for several seconds then nothing - tried again just a few minutes ago to be sure and small fire off then nothing - that is what made me suspect the fuel pump since there is fuel in the glass bowel to the 2x4 set up. What is the "accelerator pump"?
Joe

[Paul J.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Hi Mike,
That was the first thing that I did and yes - fired for several seconds then nothing - tried again just a few minutes ago to be sure and small fire off then nothing - that is what made me suspect the fuel pump since there is fuel in the glass bowel to the 2x4 set up. What is the "accelerator pump"?
Joe

The accelerator pump is a small diaphragm inside the carburetor which pumps extra gas into the carb throat as you accelerate. This is to compensate for the initial extra air. When you pump the gas pedal to set the choke to start it, you are also using this pump to prime the carb(s) so the engine will start. I would first try to crank it a little and get gas into the bowls.

Paul

[Timothy B.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Sounds like the needle and seat are stuck together, float stuck in upright position, try tapping on the carburetor gently and see if it helps.

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

I will give that a try - drove the car into the garage just fine (6 months ago !!!) so don't know what caused the problem - lack of use probably (which would make fuel pump failure kind of weird - but then again - it is an old car.
Joe

[Richard M.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

You didn't mention the Front carburetor.....Are both primary AND secondary WCFB's not pumping when you blip their throttles? If you didn't try the front carb, it may give a clue. Even with a accelerator pump issue, if the carb bowls are full, you should get at least a trickle out of them.

If you're not getting the front carb to squirt either, then I'd suspect the fuel pump is somehow not doing it's job.

Possibilities:
- Pump can't draw fuel due to vacuum condition in tank, defective vent hose or gas cap, blocked fuel intake sock, blockage in line, etc. If there's fuel in the line as you mentioned, it could be from leftover gravity feed from before.

- Pump diaphragm has cracked causing loss of pump pressure. You should get apx 5 to 7 lbs pressure flowing. If you have a fuel pressure gauge you can test it for proper pressure. If not, a observation of pressure from the open filter could give a clue.

This is what I would try....A helper/observer would be good. Use caution here........

Remove the coil wire. If your shields are on you can disable the coil by pulling the brown wire off the ballast resistor. Tape it up for safety.

Use extra caution here........
Remove the glass bowl and filter, place a few rags and a dish under the filter. Crank the engine and have your helper watch the flow. If you're only getting a trickle, it could be a input blockage.........or a bad pump. You want to make sure the input is getting fuel so verify that before you go through the trouble of swapping the pump.

If you need to change the pump, there are a few tricks to make that job easier, but we won't go there yet, unless you need to.

Good Luck, I hope it's not your pump and just a blocked tank vent. I like easy better than difficult lately.

Rich

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

When I first tried to start the car I noted a gas smell and checked and found a leak in the line between the gas line and the fuel pump. Previous owner placed a rubber hose here with clamps. I tightened the clamps to stop the leak. Could a small hole in that line cause this problem. The line no longer leaks visibly.
It is a "bubba" job with clamps on both sides of the line. The correct part (it would appear) should have a threaded end toward the gas line and a rubber end to the fuel pump. Just checking - based on Rich's comments concerning loss of vacuum.
Thanks,
Joe

[John H.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

When I first tried to start the car I noted a gas smell and checked and found a leak in the line between the gas line and the fuel pump. Previous owner placed a rubber hose here with clamps. I tightened the clamps to stop the leak. Could a small hole in that line cause this problem. The line no longer leaks visibly.
It is a "bubba" job with clamps on both sides of the line. The correct part (it would appear) should have a threaded end toward the gas line and a rubber end to the fuel pump. Just checking - based on Rich's comments concerning loss of vacuum.
Thanks,
Joe

Joe -

The rubber fuel line from the main line on the frame to the fuel pump inlet should look like the photo below - it has an integral female SAE fitting at the frame line end, and an integral 1/4" NPT male fitting at the pump end that connects to the pump through a 45* NPT adapter fitting, installed as shown, without kinking. Check your Bubba hose in that area for kinking/restrictions.


FuelLineFront57_2.jpg

[Tom B.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Frame to pump lines have a habit of deteriorating internally and collapsing under vacuum from the fuel pump. This prevents any fuel flow through the pump. The hose can appear ok on the outside and can be a real fooler. If the test above doesn't show the pump working I'd change out this hose before blaming the pump. If you change the pump, change the hose along with it just to ward off future problems.

Tom

[Richard M.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Good ideas....

Just a recommendation of how to change that line to pump hose. The problem is that the fuel will try to siphon out when the hose is removed. You don't have to drain the tank. This is how I do it using a air compressor. Wear safety glasses. Connect a bevel tipped nozzle gun to the compressor hose. Set the compressor regulator to about 10 to 20 psi.

-Remove the gas cap.
-Clamp the fuel line hose near center
-Cut the hose at the pump end, catch any fuel in a pan or rags left in the pump and pump to carb line.
-Insert the air gun nozzle in the cut end of the hose going to the tank.
-Release the clamp and use the nozzle gun to slowly blow the fuel back into the tank. The raised outlet of the empty line and sender pipe will prevent the fuel from siphoning out.
-Release the clamp
-Change the hose

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Thanks, But I have a new problem now (gremlins) - took the battery out to recharge (too much cranking) and put it back in - sparks and a charge to the starter. Key out but if I connect the battery the starter turns - sounds like the solenoid to me - so I will need to fix that before attacking the fuel problem again. If it is not one thing it is another - you have to "love" an old car.
Will keep you posted.
Joe

[Richard M.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Joe, Why did you remove the battery to charge it? Those are a pain to get in & out.

Good thing your car was in neutral......I hope!

It could be a "welded" solenoid, but.........It might be the Positive cable terminal at the solenoid post, and/or the #12 Black wire Pos feed terminal. It may have spun and touching the "S" stud of the solenoid. The "S" terminal is your Solenoid energizing point, so if the Pos cable is touching that it'll crank the starter.

Check your connections at the starter solenoid to make sure they're all properly isolated. It could be a simple fix.

Rich
p.s. In my experiences, I never had a GM solenoid stay stuck on. Ford, yes, GM no. Ford used those isolated solenoids mounted on the inner skirt. Back in the late 70's, my '70 F100 4x4 pickup did that once. Scared the heck out of me. Went to start the truck, key to crank. Engine started, but solenoid stuck. Imagine the sound of a running engine and the starter still engaged. I ran around front and had to wrench a battery terminal off to shut down.

[Christopher R.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

For when you get back to your no-gas-in-the-carb-fuel-bowl problem. You say you hadn't started the car in 6 months. In my car, the gas in the carb evaporates after about 7 days. That is, after 7 days, I have to crank the starter to get the fuel pump to refill the bowl - perhaps 30 seconds of cranking. Only then will gas squirt out when I pump the pedal. I understand that most people have this problem.

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Thanks for the advice Rich and Chris.
First of all I took the battery out because it would not seem to hold a charge and I thought it was going to have to be replaced. Took to Sears and they checked it and were able to charge it back up. Your suggestion is a good one Rich - I will check to see if the cable shifted and is now shorting to the post on the solenoid - that actually makes more sense then having the solenoid just die. BTW - lucky for me the car was in neutral - with all the cranking I was doing I got tired of holding in the clutch and just left it in neutral - I usually park it in reverse - some times you are just lucky.
As to the primary problem - my next approach was to empty the glass bowl in the glass line and then crank to see if it filled with gas - thinking that would at least implicate or hopefully clear the fuel pump question. When I did so I took out the "paper" filter and it appeared hard - maybe with disuse the gas "shelacked" the filter and that is the problem - but I will not be able to test that until I get the starter issue resolved.
Bottom line - I probably just have to drive it more often.
Will keep you posted and thanks for the help.
Joe