Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

[Jim S.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Jim, Carbs are different, air cleaner base is different, Sun Air Wheels Booklet needed in glove box (obviously interior section), as Dan said the spacer, upper radiator hose, Smog bracket, tension bracket, check valves, mixture control valve, smog tubes, hoses, spacer on pump, Intake manifold is different, passenger side valve cover is different, vacuum line is different, and I think the vacuum advance is different as well.....ARA.

Thank you Ara. This gives us some more elements to check.

[John H.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Here are a couple of photos of a restored '67 427/400 with A.I.R.; the only bright spot is that the carburetors on a '67 3x2 don't change with A.I.R. (on a single 4-barrel L36, the carburetor IS different with A.I.R.).


DSC00017.JPG3x2K19RH.JPG

[David P.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

I may have missed it in the discussion, but I didn't see any mention of the AIR drive belt in the discussion of important equipment deductions/impacts.

[Michael W.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Jim, Carbs are different, air cleaner base is different, Sun Air Wheels Booklet needed in glove box (obviously interior section), as Dan said the spacer, upper radiator hose, Smog bracket, tension bracket, check valves, mixture control valve, smog tubes, hoses, spacer on pump, Intake manifold is different, passenger side valve cover is different, vacuum line is different, and I think the vacuum advance is different as well.....ARA.

This is correct on the presumption that the owner changed all the above hardware when he tossed the AIR system. I don't think many did.

[Edward J.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

I maybe be wrong, but the thread indicates no AIR system, the judging sheets does not break anything down as per item It states only 10 for originality and 10 for condition, granted there is the plugs in manifolds and a missing belt. and a lot of maybes posted here.

[Jim S.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

I maybe be wrong, but the thread indicates no AIR system, the judging sheets does not break anything down as per item It states only 10 for originality and 10 for condition, granted there is the plugs in manifolds and a missing belt. and a lot of maybes posted here.

This is why we are a little confused. If the A.I.R. is a single line item, would there be additional deductions for say a non A.I.R carb bottom? If so, would that only be a 20% configuration issue?

Then back the exhaust manifolds for a question. I understand a configuration issue because of a correct manifold with plugs. But if the correct manifold is there, the A.I.R line item deduction would be less than 20 points?

[Edward J.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Jim, in short when the judging process finds something that is not typical due to your AIR system missing - Yes there is a deduction. The best way to find out what your up against is to have the car judged at the chapter level and then the owner will know where he stands. Its A great place to start with a car that the owner may want to take through the process. Like Mike Ward explains years ago when no one wanted the AIR system it was removed and generally there was no reason for someone to swap out valve covers, air cleaner bases, BBBUT there is about 50 years of tinkering under the hood so anything is possible.

[Mike E.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

I maybe be wrong, but the thread indicates no AIR system, the judging sheets does not break anything down as per item It states only 10 for originality and 10 for condition, granted there is the plugs in manifolds and a missing belt. and a lot of maybes posted here.

I'm going to disagree with you. 1) The original post by the original poster presumes that it is an A.I.R. to me, in that he indicates the correct manifolds are there, but with plugs in the A.I.R. holes. 2)Contacting the national team leader for direction makes a whole lot more sense than taking it to a chapter meet. Since we have a data base of around 40 66-67 original A.I.R. cars, the chances that a chapter team will know how to judge that is fairly slim. I believe Jim is looking for some input so the owner can determine whether or not to spend the money to acquire the correct system, because he ventures a guess as to dollars per point that would be gained. 3) There are some pretty knowledgeable people that have given well-thought out input to this thread. I see it as much more than some "maybes".

[Edward J.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Mike, The only reason I say "maybe" is there is no car being judged here, And no way of really looking to see what else is really correct or incorrect. I took a look at the the on line judging sheets for the A.I.R. system it only gives 10 and 10 for the system, and what ever else is deemed incorrect because the system missing all of the componets. I don't know if the on line sheets for mech. 67 reflect any changes due to a newer edition.

[Ara G.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

This is why we are a little confused. If the A.I.R. is a single line item, would there be additional deductions for say a non A.I.R carb bottom? If so, would that only be a 20% configuration issue? Then back the exhaust manifolds for a question. I understand a configuration issue because of a correct manifold with plugs. But if the correct manifold is there, the A.I.R line item deduction would be less than 20 points?

Jim, an analogy would be judging added side pipes on a car. For example, the side exhaust pipes themselves would receive a deduction (if the judges determined the car was not a factory original side pipe car) BUT also the absence of the cutouts in the rear valance for the under car exhaust tips would also be a judged item also. Rockers are different for a pipe car versus under car exhaust, etc...So just one line item may affect other areas of the judging process. ARA

[Harry S.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Jim, an analogy would be judging added side pipes on a car. For example, the side exhaust pipes themselves would receive a deduction (if the judges determined the car was not a factory original side pipe car) BUT also the absence of the cutouts in the rear valance for the under car exhaust tips would also be a judged item also. Rockers are different for a pipe car versus under car exhaust, etc...So just one line item may affect other areas of the judging process. ARA

Ara, what deduction would the side pipes receive? I can't think of one. It would be double dipping. At the last meet I judged at there was a 67 with add on side pipes. As I recall the total points deducted was about 200 when you added all 5 teams together.

It's like a luggage rack, you don't deduct for the rack, you deduct for the holes and the missing paint.

[Ara G.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Ara, what deduction would the side pipes receive? I can't think of one. It would be double dipping. At the last meet I judged at there was a 67 with add on side pipes. As I recall the total points deducted was about 200 when you added all 5 teams together.It's like a luggage rack, you don't deduct for the rack, you deduct for the holes and the missing paint.

Harry, nice to hear from you. Off the top of my head the judges would look/judge the splash shields and presence or absence of weatherstripping on them, the cutouts on the body for the side pipes themselves, the correctness or lack thereof the rocker moldings, the rear valance correctness, the lack of ground straps on the frame for under car exhaust pipes, the cut at the front of the body on side pipe car/non side pipe car, possibly even the exhaust note difference on side pipe car versus under car exhaust system, etc... 200 points seems like a lot, but who knows....ARA

[Harry S.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Harry, nice to hear from you. Off the top of my head the judges would look/judge the splash shields and presence or absence of weatherstripping on them, the cutouts on the body for the side pipes themselves, the correctness or lack thereof the rocker moldings, the rear valance correctness, the lack of ground straps on the frame for under car exhaust pipes, the cut at the front of the body on side pipe car/non side pipe car, possibly even the exhaust note difference on side pipe car versus under car exhaust system, etc... 200 points seems like a lot, but who knows....ARA

Agree, but the side pipes themselves are not judged. Just all the missing and damaged components to install the sidepipes.

[John H.]

Re: Flight Judging points deduction for missing A.I.R equipment on '67 BB.

Mike, The only reason I say "maybe" is there is no car being judged here, And no way of really looking to see what else is really correct or incorrect. I took a look at the the on line judging sheets for the A.I.R. system it only gives 10 and 10 for the system, and what ever else is deemed incorrect because the system missing all of the componets. I don't know if the on line sheets for mech. 67 reflect any changes due to a newer edition.

Edward -

The 10/10 is just for the basics of the system, but there are LOTS of other components that are specific to A.I.R. and whose part numbers are different from those used on a non-A.I.R. car, starting with the basic engine assembly (different suffix, etc.) and continuing through items such as the distributor, carburetor, air cleaner, drive pulleys & belts, valve cover, hoses & plumbing, etc. All of those items add up, and are assessed individually in addition to the few items assigned the 10/10 in Section 11 on the judging sheet. As with other systems on the car, deductions depend on how much of the total system has been removed and is now "missing'.