Is it possible that the 1965 I'm looking at with a trim tag of F 12, has an engine that is stamped F0322HE? The car was built on Jan 12, 1965, but the engine is stamped March 22.
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Re: 65 ID Help
Hi George,
A few other things would be helpful in making these judgements.
1 The Vin # of the car
2 The body # of the car and is it a AO Smith or St Louis body
3 Is the Vin # stamped on the block
4 What is the casting date on the engine.
Hopefully we can help with more info
Page Campbell -
Re: 65 ID Help
The vin# is 194375S107431.
Front Pad # 5107431 F0322HE
Trim Tag Reads:
F 12 A-1303 Body
Style 19 437 MM Paint
Trim STD
I could not read the engine block number and date because of the shielding.
Thanks,
GeorgeComment
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Re: 65 ID Help
George-----
Per the trim tag info that you provided, this car has an A.O. Smith-built body. Consequently, the relationship between body build date and engine assembly date are very possible. A.O. Smith bodies were built in Ionia, MI and shipped to St. Louis complete. Due to this, it is possible to have an A.O. Smith-built body which has a body build date prior to the engine's assembly date.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: 65 ID Help
Joe,
I was hoping that the AO Smith body had something to do with the date problem. I'm considering purchasing this car and have known it for 15 years because it belongs to a friend who purchased it at Carlisle in the late 80's. When you think about it, if it was a re-stamp, why would someone re-stamp a foward date? Also, this 327/250 has sidepipes.Everything I've read and been told on this site is that the N14 option did not come on this base engine. Could this be another AO Smith related possibility? Thanks, GeorgeComment
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Re: I'm confused
Gents,
You have me confused on this posting. The body on this car was made on Jan 12, 1965. Using the VIN# and the birthday calculator, the assembly date for the car is Jan 20, 1965. Question is: How can a car that came of the line on Jan 20 have an engine dated March 22?
Unless I'm missing something obvious, it looks like this car has had a later model engine installed in it. This idea might make since since the car has side pipes and 250 HP's did not have that option.
If it is an original side pipe car, the rear valance panel will have no patched holes where the exhaust bezels used to be. If so, it is probably an original N14 option. And if it is, the engine can't be a 250 HP.
Don't you just love a good mystery?
Regards,
GeneComment
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Re: I'm confused
No way a January 20th-produced car could have a March engine, and there has never been a documented A.O. Smith car with factory sidepipes.Comment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
John - I agree with the engine date observations, but this A.O. Smith sidepipe question seems to be confusing....here is a post from Art last week, and I had heard similar I THOUGHT but maybe I am remembering wrong fro Al Grenning in a 67 documentation class in Bloomington...
Re: 65 Trim Tag ID
Posted By: Art Armstrong
Date: Thursday, 28 August 2003, at 12:58 p.m.
In Response To: Re: 65 Trim Tag ID (John Hinckley)
In addition to what John has correctly stated as the series designations, AO Smith DID make bodies with the N14 option. I have a DowSmith AIM and it shows their assembly process which includes the N14 option.
ArtComment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
The '65 Judging guide also indicates that sidepipes appeared around S/N 10,000, nowhere near the VIN of a January build car.Bill Clupper #618Comment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
Hi George,
I don't see how a late March motor could be in a mid January car. The Vin# and the trim tag of F12 appear to be good. Since the final Vin # for January 1965 was #108442 from the judging manual. I wondowder if it was restamped back in the early 1980's when most people didn't know the correct relation between the vin and engine assembly dates. I guess it buyer beware.
Good luck on this one
Page CampbellComment
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Hello? Anyone home?
Why does everyone assume it is original?
Let's try this first:
> belongs to a friend who purchased it
> at Carlisle in the late 80's.
Hmmm, any possibility the engine could have had the number stamped on it since the prices were going through the roof in the late '80s? (rhetorical question - we pretty well know the answer)
HE is the code not only for '65 327, but for '66 to '68 327 and also '69 350 with PG in Camaro, Chevelle, and Chevy II.
Without a block date and casting number, he can't even say it is definitely a 327! Yes, the F in F0322HE probably means it is the earlier 327. Or it could have all been stamped.
And you all wonder why I opposed engine stamping so much.
Now to the sidepipes:
Does anyone think someone put them on because they LIKED them? Never did it or thought about originality? Maybe thought they sounded great or made the car look good? Or they increased the selling price back in the late '80s.
George,
Heck, buy the car, you know it and the owner. Just don't pay extra for it being original, because at this point, there is nothing to say it is. And just figure you take the hit on engine points if you show it.
Of course, if you try to get it low because it isn't original, he might get offended and you lose a friend. So you be the judge, decide how much he will accept, and weigh how much your friendship is worth as opposed to insulting his lack of Corvette savvy 15 years ago. It might be better to pay a little too much, or just simply walk away, to keep a friend.
Good luck.Comment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
Page-----
While 2 months is a rather long period between body build date and engine build date, for an A. O. Smith built body, it's quite possible. After body build at A.O. Smith in Ionia, MI, the body still needed to be completed and shipped to St. Louis. It's very possible that some sort of repair needed to be done and this resulted in the body being held at Ionia for a longer-than-usual period. Then, after arrival at St. Louis, it may not have been immediately scheduled into production of a finished car.
Engines were, typically, about 2 weeks from assembly date to installation in a car on the line; sometimes this was longer if an engine got "stuck" in the back of the bay (St. Louis did not rotate engine stocks). In this case, though, the typical 2 week period may have applied. So, if it took a total of 10 weeks after application of the body tag for this body to reach the St. Louis assembly line and the typical 2 week period for the engine to reach the assembly line at St. Louis, then you would end up with the relationship between body build date and engine build date seen in this case.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
I am going to try to get the block casting number and date this afternoon. The original rear panel is missing from the car so I have no way to see about the filled in exhaust holes. You guys have all been great and I hope to have more info later today.Comment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
George: IN SPITE OF MISSING REAR LOWER VALENCE PANEL, OTHER AREAS OF THE CAR CAN BE EXAMINED TO DETERMINE IF VET WAS ORIG SIDE PIPE VS UNDER THE CAR EXHAUST. IF IT WAS ORIG A SIDE PIPE CAR, THERE WILL BE NO WEATHERSTRIP NOR EVEIDENCE OF STAPLE HOLES TO ATTACH SAID WEATHERSTRIP TO THE TRIANGULAR SPLASH PANS UP FRONT, THERE WILL BE NO EVIDENCE OF THREADS BEING CUT INTO THE TRANNY X-MEMBER TO FASTEN THE RADIO GROUND STRAPS, THERE WILL BE A SEMICIRCULAR CUT IN BOTH REAR INNER SKIRTS AND THERE WILL BE NO EVIDENCE OF SCARING OF THE FRAME WHERE THE MUFFLER HANGERS LOCATE ON AN UNDER THE CAR EXHAUST SYSTEM.tHERE ARE UNIQUE CUT-OUTS ON THE METAL CHANNEL SECTION OF THE BIRDCAGE THAT WERE OF ASSEMBLY=LINE ORIGIN ON OUTSIDE EXH. EQUIPPED VETS. MIKEComment
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Re: I'm confused- more confused
Joe, Theoretically possible, but a Loooong shot at best. I have never seen one that far out of range.Comment
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