BLOCK BROACHING

[Tom R.]

Re: During the pad seminar at Hershey the comment.

I may have misunderstood Al's comments at the Hershey seminar but I thought I heard that the emphasis on broach marks has been overstated. I went back to the handout though and was not able to find reference to "broach marks." The way the letters were struck and defects in the letters themselves, in relation to other blocks stamped during the same time period, are more likely to reveal a counterfeit.

[mike cobine]

Not all fakes have to be rebroached

Actually, I didn't say "slipping a broached engine pad past an experienced judge" but "slipping a car past judges".

While the ability to detect engines with new broaching is better, that wasn't always the case, and it isn't always applicable. And yes, I know that the Flight awards are not proof of originality, but 99% of the buying public do not know that.

1. Cars that were flight judged several years ago. A buyer sees a Top Flight award and the seller claims original. It may or may not be. How many 10 years ago were using microscopes on the broaching pattern?

2. Unstamped blocks that are now stamped to that car. It isn't original to the car but the broach is factory.

3. Blocks with partial sufixes that get continued. For example, a lowly F0102R block can easily become 3105981 F0102RF and again, the microscopes won't see a wrong broach.

4. There are companies that make a LOT of money to create cars that are undetectable. At the Winter Regional a few years ago, I talked with an engine builder who claimed to have several engines that went through without detection, including rebroaching. He claimed that is why he got the bucks to build an engine and he offered a warranty that if it didn't, you got a chunk of that back.

With all of this, you end up with people like in the Corvette Restorer the other month where a buyer buys what is supposed to be an original car and then discovers that the judging gets better and determines the car is fake. After all, how many buyers have photos of 50 engine pads before and after the one he is looking at for comparison and a microscope to check the broach?

While it is easy to say none get pass NCRS, the reality is that unless you discover one later or the owner admits it, you have no way to know if one went past you or not. Only the bad ones get caught. Did one fake come to the meet, or did 100? How many did you catch? How do you know if you caught all 6 or only 6 of the 20? If no one admits to doing it, you have no evidence to know.

And while you can say that the buyer needs to be very careful, use experts, examine and compare to known originals, this is far more work than 90 percent will ever do. And how many can talk one or two expert judges into taking a trip to Noble, IL or Lewis, KS to look at a '68 400 hp with ac or a '64 365 hp?

It is far more easier to simply not pay so much. Instead of paying $80,000 for an original and having to spend 40 hours of work to verify it, it is simpler and safer to only buy at $40,000 where you don't have as much at risk. Buying an $80,000 car and discovering it is fake and only worth $40,000 is much worse than buying at $40,000 and discovering it is fake and only worth $25,000.

And getting a fake is easier all the time, since fakes don't go away, there is no clearing house of fakes, and the poor guy who potentially lost $20,000 or more because he was suckered isn't that likely to be so honest that he doesn't try to recover some of that on the next buyer.

And while it is wonderful on here to say you trust your fellow NCRS member, it ony takes $30 to join. There is no polygraph, no truth serum, no alteration of the brain to stop dishonest behavior. These people won't last, and word will spread, but how would you like to be the first victim?

And the sad part is, couldn't all of this simply be listed as restoration under NCRS guidelines so really nothing is wrong?

[Dennis C.]

Re: Not all fakes have to be rebroached

Mike - You have a major league grip on the entire issue... Best, Dennis

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Not all fakes have to be rebroached

Mike, what can I say but WOW! Missed this response earlier. You hit so many bullseyes you had me in full tilt mode half-way down - indeed every point is dead on accurate. Very refreshing to see such an earthy perspective grounded in reality.

"And the sad part is, couldn't all of this simply be listed as restoration under NCRS guidelines so really nothing is wrong?"

Indeed - Why is it OK to paint numbers on a frame to make it correctly restored and like original or apply reproduction decals w/ numbers to make a part correct or restamp an alternator or apply a numbered 'band' to a distributor to make it original? Any of these parts could have come from other Corvettes or vehicles afterall. But restoring an engine pad w/ numbers is not allowed? Yet another double standard?

Perhaps consider the old adage: 'follow the money' - ask yourself who stands to lose by allowing the 'restoration' of engine pads? Or who stands to gain by maintaining a standard of original only pads that cannot be modified in the name of 'restoration'? Think about it.

thanks

[John A. Salce(# 21388)]

Re: During the pad seminar at Hershey the comment.

I have been following the discussion on broach marks. Are there any pictures that would show the differences between a counterfeit and original block? It seems to me this would clear up any ambiguity and clarify to members one way or the other. As for myself, I would like to see a 20x digital photo that depicts an original one so I have a frame of reference. It seems easy enough to do this. Are there pictures out there? If they are let's have a look-see. John

[John M.]

Re: During the pad seminar at Hershey the comment.

John,
That will be a tough thing to do. Not all original pads look the same and not all "restored" pads look the same. As the cutter on the broaching machine was used, it will change the look of the way it will cut and the type of lines it will lay down. Add to that, the fact that many of these pads have been out there for over 30 years in the weather and have developed quite a bit of rust and pitting, and the pad gets even harder to judge. There are some real obvious fakes out there that are done really poorly with little regard to proper texture or proper stamping. On the other hand, There are some real good restamps out there where the level of craftsmanship is so good as to be indistingushable from an original stamp. Judges have to look at many aspects of a pad to determine if is consistent with the way the factory did it. When push comes to shove, it is not usually the broach marks that sink a pad, but the stamp itself. The font size, orentiation, and spacing can speak volumes to an experienced Judge.

Regards, John McGraw

[bob ward]

Re: During the pad seminar at Hershey the comment.

I have to give my 2 cents on this subject, definitely an NCRS guy like most on this discussion board. If you are going to buy (key word is buy) any 'restored' car, judged or not, if a picture of the undecked head surface (broach marks from front to back) is not available, then its more than likely fake in my book. Pretty simple. How can someone logically spend thousands on an engine and not take a simple picture, especially if they know not to deck the block and what value damge that does. How can one know not to deck and also not to take a before-after picture (logic for the most part is not there).

I followed my simple rule on the 3 big dollar cars I have, and this works for me. Otherwise go cheap on the purchase, and maybe get a pleasant surprise when you take the passenger side head off. My current problem is a never taken apart LS6. Rule does not work.

[bob ward]

Re: During the pad seminar at Hershey the comment.

whoops, I knew I should have previewed before sending, I missed the word NOT NCRS in my experience. But my advise is still sound, I think.