ebay bidding: a bit tricky!!!

[Eugene B.]

Re: Puzzling statements

Members,
I know that this is a tangent from the original post, but the last two posts made me think. It seems to be a true statement that the hobby has aged. I wonder if this possible explanation is correct?

Us "old folks", including myself at age 53 got into the Corvette hobby when the cars were cheep. I paid $1495 for my '65 Conv when I bought it in 1970. If I did not already own it, I would not be able to afford $25K-$30k to go out and buy one.

When the restoration is complete, I'm not sure how many youngsters will be able to come up with $40K-$50K to buy it. I wonder if we have already priced these cars out of the market for younger people who may not have that much extra discretionary income to buy them.

That's why I am opposed to anything that brings us all closer to the "bottom falling out". My initial post regarding eBay was aimed at this issue. If suppy and demand (eBay) jacks prices through the roof ($400 oil caps, etc.), we may accelerate the dropping out of the bottom. Then all of us will be stuck with high dollar cars that too few people can afford.

Thanks for letting me state my views.

Best regards,
Gene

[Roy B.]

Re: Puzzling statements

When people say the Corvette prices are getting to high at $30k or $50k and buyers may pass on owning a piece of history. Lets keep in mind that new cars are near or over that price rang too. Then look at the two seater new sports cars that are being sold today, $50k and over is nothing for one of them and then what will they be worth in three years. It may take them 25 years to start going up if ever.Can you see your self doing a body off restored 2003 sports car years from now?

[mike cobine]

Sniping removes the game players

While most of you look at this as honest bidding, you haven't done your eBay homework. There are MANY who use shill bidders and MANY who are simply in for the fun of bidding.

Friday ending item, worth $100 -
If the item starts at $10, no bids, and you bid $100 on Monday, you are high bidder at $10.

Johnny the game boy comes along and bids $12 to see if you have done a proxy bid of a large amount or just the base $10. He knows nothing about the part, cares less about it, but likes the game of bidding. If he had become high bidder, he knows in the next four days, you or someone will outbid him and keep his game safe. Instead, you are still high bidder at $13. So he bids again at $14 and you are at $15. Depending on his cool and knowledge, and probably on how fake he is, he may bid you up to $50 or more.

Seller "iselllotsofcorvetteparts" knows the part is worth a lot more than $15. Now that two are bidding, he runs his shill "corvettepartsbuyer" into the game with a $19 bid. Odds are you bid at even amounts - $10, $15, $20, $25, etc. So his $19 will pop you up to $20 easily.

The slick shill will bid $19.21 or 19.78 or such so that he can tell what you bid. If the high becomes $20, then he knows you bid $20 max. If it becomes $20.21, then you obviously have more in than $20.

Continuing the logic, he hits you for $24.78 to bounce you to $25.78.

Action is fun, so bidding fever hits, the guy who figures this must be a valuable part and I-NEED-it arrives and bids.

By Friday, the price is now $91.78 and you are high bid. The seller only wanted to get at least $90 and he is happy so he leaves you alone. The gamer is leery of the $100 mark and may or may not bother you.

You win the auction with the only others bididng at $91.78 instead of the $10 if the bidding had been legit.

Now if you snipe, the gamer won't initiate bidding, as he could get stuck. The shill won't because he could get stuck. And at 5 seconds to go, the seller can't get his shill going fast enough to raise you to an artificial price.

So do you simply do an early proxy bid and pay $91.78 or do you snipe and get a bargain at $10 or so?

And we haven't touched the revenge bidders or the mad bidders. The revenge guys lost to you last week. So they are out to make all of your future wins be as high as possible. The mad bidders are mad and are going to make you pay. For what, you have no idea, but they end up targeting you and your recourse is probably an ID change. Or you sucker them into a bid that they win and get ebay on them.

None of this has a simple solution. It is a mess and eBay is doing nothing to rectify it.

Don't believe me, try being a seller. Deadbeat bidders, fake info, phony money orders, mail delivery scams, and so on.

And ebay goes merrily along.

[Ralph Harlan]

Re: Puzzling statements

$1,495 in 1970 was not pocket change then, as some consider it to be now! By the math, the $20 - 30 K to buy one now is less expensive. We're aging out because Chevrolet has not really made an exciting Corvette in years. Now you can pump up a 1500 cc engine to over 1,000 hp and have a toy that will blow a new c-5 away with less than $15,000 invested. Rice burner? So?!

The new Honda 2 seater is a fun car to drive, and you can buy one new for less than $30K. So why would a youngster look at a cross-fire C-4? My wife's new Venture van develops almost as much hp out of 3400cc's from the factory.

WE do it because the 'Vette was the hot piece when we were that age. I had a '64 in '71 -'75 that should have killed me. I don't need to go that fast on the highway anymore. But the young bucks still do run em like we did - but they ain't looking at the cardboard chevvy - or the 350 GT.

[Todd H 26112]

Prices haven't changed just fluctuated

Relative to avg annual incomes the Corvette has base list price ranged between ~100% and ~170% or so. That's a pretty good variance.

Cheap years include
1974 (cheapest)
1973
1975
1979
1972
1976
1978
1969

The most expensive years were
1985
1961
1988
1958
1989
1960
1987
1959
1986
1953 (most expensive by far)

C5 is hovering in the middle of the 'range'. HOWEVER (and this is a biggee) I only considered base prices. Base price or modest increases over there were somewhat a reality. But nowadays upscale cars are heavily packaged. And of course there's 'street' price vs list - and no I'm not going to attempt that one either.

[Todd H 26112]

Interesting point about graying...

Well said Robert,

There is in fact a graying of the general Corvette population including those that purchase brand new C5s as well as perhaps an even more notable graying of the NCRS population. In another words NCRS members seem old by the relative old standards of Corvettes in general. But given the normal 'lag' between current production and what NCRS judges - I think at this point it may be somewhat normal that NCRS' population be somewhat older than the COrvette population.

If NCRS ever was youthful it's far from that now - Simply put it's an organization about status quo. 20 or 30 somethings are few and far between that are interested in clumping around on bias ply tires or dinking w/ ignition points or understanding the nuances of crappy paint jobs. Presuming such a young person even has the kind of disposable income to enjoy a 30, 40 or 50 yr old play toy - they'll likely want to drive it a bit and wouldn't mind some modern conveniences to boot.

Probably the best thing NCRS has done is continue to open up newer generations of Corvettes to the judging process which now stretches up to early C4s I believe. That's probably the best place to look for younger members in appreciable numbers.

I've observed what I think are other mitigating factors regarding a younger NCRS population...

Despite claims from some that nothing has changed in NCRS since 1974 I suspect a LOT has. A WHOLE LOT. Judging standards have evolved to seriousy push the envelope of not just knowledge but anal-retentiveness as well.

It's that later observation (retentive) that makes me wonder... Compared to the crowd attracted to this hobby in the mid 70s - would the same folks at the same age be attracted today if they were plunged into an era of bickering and penalizing over piddly nothing stuff that sometimes can't even be seen by the naked eye?

As for the former (knowledge)... TO a certain degree NCRS is a victim of it's own success. Increased knowledge. The increased knowledge has led to higher and tougher judging standards. Because of this it is a lot harder for a young person to absorb it all and restore a C2 to top flight condition than if the same person attempted the same thing say 20+ years ago.

My own recommendations are simple - NCRS should at least show the interest and initiative to take some occasional and ongoing surveys of the silent majority membership, pose the tough questions some people don't want discussed on this forum and respond accordingly. An aggressive expansion of future years of Corvettes for judging as has already been the case but I'd venture to suggest encouraging membership among owners whose cars aren't quite yet ready for judging. I have run across MANY folks w/ newer Corvettes that were interested in joining NCRS and working to develop FUTURE judging standards for future Corvette years and have been told no thanks. I don't know the details but I sure hear that one a lot. And finally a modest liberalization of standards: cut a little slack for service replacement wear parts, get serious about 'driving' and cut out the double standards particularly on safety items, it's as embarrassing as it is indefensible.

Others have proposed ideas of 'beginner' flight judging and somewhat more streamlined judging - which might attract younger, non-traditional member involvement but I don't know.

Nor do I know if there is any serious interest to expand membership beyond it's current levels or demographics.

[Reba Whittington]

Re: Interesting point about graying...

First let me state an overlooked fact: Research shows that clubs catering to certain models of cars are usually those who grew up with that particular model. In our area, Model-A's were once very popular, but as the guys that were young when the cars were have passed on, interest has waned. There has been one for sale in the newspaper for over a year with no takers. Many of us wanted a Corvette in our early twenties, but could not afford it at the time. As we have gotten our mortgages paid, the children educated, and we have retired, there is time and income to pursue this hobby. Many of my friends are into the muscle cars from the 1960s that were their dreams.

In the almost 20 years that I have been involved with NCRS, costs have escalated not only for the cars but attendance at the meets. Young couples with families cannot afford to go into this hobby on a full-time basis. It is not that they don't want to restore or drive around in these cars; it is the time and money involved.

As for bringing in the newer cars, it will not be as difficult to document and write manuals for the C4s and C5s because much of the information about them has been saved. The new 1987-89 manual has probably set a record for getting into print. NCRS had to do mountains of research and document things about the earlier cars. (Some of this is still on-going. Updates just came out for the 1953-55 Judging Guide.) At the time, it was not important to know when the style of door handle or radio knob changed or if they looked the same. All we cared about was that they worked.

NCRS does listen to people. Every time a manual is revised, team leaders almost beg people to help. The comments always seem to come AFTER the JG goes into print; then errors are pointed out by those who kept silent during the process. We don't need to change judging standards that have worked for thirty years. I would not say the judging standards are any tougher; there is just more knowledge. Anyone who can read the manual can prepare a car to meet the criteria.

I will now get off my soapbox and prepare for Thanksgiving. One of the things I am thankful for is this organization and the many friends I have made.

[Jack H.]

Re: Sniping removes the game players

eBay's position is 'almost' reasonable....they provide a forum, both buyer and seller have agreed to the same contractual conditions, they are NOT a policeman, all users have recourse to civil litigation.

In those isolated cases where it IS possible to prove a situation of contract infringement to eBay's satisfaction, they will/do revoke the infringing party's eBay membership. But, it's pretty easy to get another e-mail account and show up as a 'new' user a day or two later.

Hence, the practice of buyer and seller rating each other and seller being able to construct a list of generic bid rejection criteria (by specific member name, rating, Etc.). No system is perfect and while some *&^% does happen, I've yet to be burned by a fellow Corvette enthusiast.

One thing I do periodically, is take items that haven't received bids but have had LOTS of 'looks' throughout the listing period and simply 'pull' them prior to auction close to keep Johnny-sniper honest. Of course, if a given auction has had bona fide bidding participation, I don't do this.

Last, there's the case of having more than one of a given item. Seller gets to pick & choose which of his bidders get a Second Chance, private auction. Recognized sniper-bidders may not get my courtesy consideration....

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Interesting point about graying...

EXCELLENT point re Model As as a potential bellweather of NCRS - thanks for reminding us. The one advantage is the Corvette has been around for so many generations but of course what you are saying is relative to a given generation of Corvette. Since the 80s I doubt future generations will likely have to go thru the research process that C1-earlyC3 did to develop highly accurage manuals and knowledge bases. Much better documentated at an EARLIER stage but also the manufacturing processes seem more consistent too.

"The comments always seem to come AFTER the JG goes into print; then errors are pointed out by those who kept silent during the process."

That presumes too much - my opinion is the solicitation for input and the entire review and release process is not well publicized and that is a very unfair and unrealistic statement. The fact that information pours in AFTER the publication merely illustrates that. Obviously there are plenty of willing volunteers interested in providing information too bad we can't better involve them. In a previous thread about electronic versions of the manuals it was mentioned they were still done on paper/pencil/typewriter - Frankly I don't care if they have been done like that for 30 years or 300 years - speaking for myself (IF that is true) that is a bit if a turn-off. (But I think help can be had to convert to electronic) But given electronic formats and the internet - the ability to collaborate across vast distances should boggle the mind.

"We don't need to change judging standards that have worked for thirty years."

I'll respectfully stand by my previous suggestions but I'm not a status quo type. The double standards and compromises in safety alone are indefensibile. Interpretations have also changed over the 30 years.

"I would not say the judging standards are any tougher; there is just more knowledge."

The added knowledge makes the judging standards in and of themselves tougher by definition - that's what I meant when I said NCRS is a victim of it's own success in that regard. The retentiveness has indeed evolved over the years based on my own observations. The retentiveness is a normal and predictable pattern. As the low hanging fruit are understood and judged so it evolves to increasingly more and more 'higher' fruit as it were until we are where we are today where I see tremendous focus and discussion on excessively minor issues to the whole car and sometimes even require magnification to view.

"Anyone who can read the manual can prepare a car to meet the criteria."

On the surface and at a simple level that is a true statement. But consider what I said about the amount of money (even making inflationary adjustments) and effort and detail involved to bring a C2 to top flight then vs now. Presuming younger folks are interested in restoring an older generation C to Top Flight - this aspect helps mitigate such interest. For that matter I believe many top flight cars of yesteryear couldn't do it again today.

Happy Thanksgiving,

[Warren F.]

Re: Interesting point about graying...

"For that matter I believe many top flight cars of yesteryear couldn't do it again today". What length of time, do you consider yesteryear to present, to be?

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Interesting point about graying...

already answered 1 or 2 posts ago