65 KNOCKOFFS

[Richard T.]

I have a chance to buy a set of origional 65 Knockoffs at a reasonable price. What's the best way to tell that I'm getting the real thing and not a set of repo's ? Any help appreciated as I'm sceduled to go this Thursday evening 7/22/99 Thanks Rich

[jon herrick]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

The originals are made by Kelsey-Hayes, the aftermarket are produced by Western. The originals have narrower spokes than do the replacement wheel. Also the area between the spokes on a 65 wheel were painted dark gray. Hope this helps Jon

[jon herrick]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

The originals are made by Kelsey-Hayes, the aftermarket are produced by Western. The originals have narrower spokes than do the replacement wheel. Also the area between the spokes on a 65 wheel were painted dark gray. Hope this helps Jon

[Tom B.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Rich,

One thing is determining if they are original. Assuming your intention is to have the 1965 MODEL YEAR knock-off the the NEXT thing to determine is that they are for the 1965 application. Correct color paint and chrome or brushed "cones" can be added or removed. There are subtle differences to look for, and if you have access to the Nolan Adams book: "Corvette Restoration and Technical Guide - Vol. 2 1963 through 1967" (pages 156, 238, 299, 368) then you might want to check for the differences in the 1964, 65, and 66 year applications. If you don't have access to the book post again and ask.

Also, if this is a complete "set" that would include adaptors, spinners, etc. there are original markings for those too. Reproduction adaptors usually (always?) have perpendicular slots "grooved" into the threads for "safety pins". Since your question only had to do with original vs. reproduction 1965 wheels, jon's info will get it, and I'll leave it at that. Tom #24014

[Tom B.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Rich,

One thing is determining if they are original. Assuming your intention is to have the 1965 MODEL YEAR knock-off the the NEXT thing to determine is that they are for the 1965 application. Correct color paint and chrome or brushed "cones" can be added or removed. There are subtle differences to look for, and if you have access to the Nolan Adams book: "Corvette Restoration and Technical Guide - Vol. 2 1963 through 1967" (pages 156, 238, 299, 368) then you might want to check for the differences in the 1964, 65, and 66 year applications. If you don't have access to the book post again and ask.

Also, if this is a complete "set" that would include adaptors, spinners, etc. there are original markings for those too. Reproduction adaptors usually (always?) have perpendicular slots "grooved" into the threads for "safety pins". Since your question only had to do with original vs. reproduction 1965 wheels, jon's info will get it, and I'll leave it at that. Tom #24014

[Patrick H.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Jon,

Are the original and reproduction wheels both identified as to manufacturer on the back side? The additional parts as well? Do you happen to know the thickness dimensions of original vs. reproduction "ribs"?

Does Western also make the current reproductions available through Auto Accessories, and by them through others?

Sorry for so many picky questions. Trying to also resolve this for a friend's 66. Thanks!

Patrick

[Patrick H.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Jon,

Are the original and reproduction wheels both identified as to manufacturer on the back side? The additional parts as well? Do you happen to know the thickness dimensions of original vs. reproduction "ribs"?

Does Western also make the current reproductions available through Auto Accessories, and by them through others?

Sorry for so many picky questions. Trying to also resolve this for a friend's 66. Thanks!

Patrick

[Tom B.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Patrick,

If you need measurements, markings etc, I have an unrestored original set of 66 knock-offs I can take them from. Willing to help. Tom #24014

[Tom B.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Patrick,

If you need measurements, markings etc, I have an unrestored original set of 66 knock-offs I can take them from. Willing to help. Tom #24014

[Wayne M.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Rich --- A few more pointers to add to the other posters; Over the years there have been several reproductions, not all using the pin-type spinner attachment. I usually apply the 20-foot test -- from a distance, the repros just look too shiny on the spokes; they are machined or finished differently on the non-painted surface; sometimes you can see a rainbow or defraction pattern caused by the minute ridges left by the machine tool. you can cut your finger on the edges they're so sharp. The repro rims (between the end of the spoke and the lip) have a different X-section contour -- also the repro machining on the spoke ends closer to the lip (sorry this is so subjective, but I don't have a repro handy to compare, and it's 4 AM and am too lazy to go down into the garage and lie on my back)

The spinners do not say TAIWAN, or some other exotic destination, on the back sand-cast surface. There should be a cast LH or RH on the back to differentiate the proper side and thread

Original '66's have a date stamp on the back side, in addition to the KH casting symbol. Goes something like B 2 14 66 for Feb 14 '66. I seem to recall a letter after the year (maybe the production shift B, C). There has been some discussion on this board as to whether the '65's had the same date stampings, or when they began. Also, if it's a set of 5 rims, this is a good sign, as not many repro buyers bothered to buy the spare rim that all factory cars had.

[Wayne M.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Rich --- A few more pointers to add to the other posters; Over the years there have been several reproductions, not all using the pin-type spinner attachment. I usually apply the 20-foot test -- from a distance, the repros just look too shiny on the spokes; they are machined or finished differently on the non-painted surface; sometimes you can see a rainbow or defraction pattern caused by the minute ridges left by the machine tool. you can cut your finger on the edges they're so sharp. The repro rims (between the end of the spoke and the lip) have a different X-section contour -- also the repro machining on the spoke ends closer to the lip (sorry this is so subjective, but I don't have a repro handy to compare, and it's 4 AM and am too lazy to go down into the garage and lie on my back)

The spinners do not say TAIWAN, or some other exotic destination, on the back sand-cast surface. There should be a cast LH or RH on the back to differentiate the proper side and thread

Original '66's have a date stamp on the back side, in addition to the KH casting symbol. Goes something like B 2 14 66 for Feb 14 '66. I seem to recall a letter after the year (maybe the production shift B, C). There has been some discussion on this board as to whether the '65's had the same date stampings, or when they began. Also, if it's a set of 5 rims, this is a good sign, as not many repro buyers bothered to buy the spare rim that all factory cars had.

[Patrick H.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Tom,

As originals seem as rare as hen's teeth, I know that I would sure love as accurate as description as you could give. Plus, I'm sure that I am not alone in this regard.

If possible, please take some time to check them out, and post the info when you can.

Thanks!

Patrick

[Patrick H.]

Re: 65 KNOCKOFFS

Tom,

As originals seem as rare as hen's teeth, I know that I would sure love as accurate as description as you could give. Plus, I'm sure that I am not alone in this regard.

If possible, please take some time to check them out, and post the info when you can.

Thanks!

Patrick

[Tom B.]

Patrick: 66 KH K/O info

Patrick,

Here is the information for the 1966 set of 5 original KH knock-offs I have. I have an additional note at the bottom also.

Wheels (front side): The dark grey factory paint appears to me to be more "unusual" in a way as compared to the "light-black" (grey) I have seen on reproduction knock-offs. I measured the outer, unpainted, smooth surface "length" of the spokes. That is nearly full length, but other measurement is more difficult. That measurement was 3 13/16" long and the width tapers from 3/16" at the outer rim edge to a wider 7/32" at the base of the cone. The space between the spokes is 1 1/8" at the outer rim edge to a narrower 7/16" at the base of the cone.

Wheels (back side): On the "flat" surface (backside of the center / spokes) I have (deep) metal die stamped dates. Four of them are some version of: B6 (space) xx(numbered date) (space) 65. The other is C6 xx 65. There is a cast, oblong circle (ellipse) containing the raised letters "K-H" and "D-49985". Also, 3 wheels hav a 1/4" stamped square enclosing the stamped letter "H", one wheel has it enclosing a (straight line) letter "I", and one has no such marking. I have a set of radials mounted on the wheels right now and am not able to access the inside of the rims right now.

Spinners: All markings on the backside appear as "inset" cast, as I don't see how deep stamping could be done without risk of breakage. One wing on all spinners appears with a 5/8" circle "pie", full with 6 pieces, followed by a "1". On the wing to the right of those markings are either the left hand designation: 230 LH, or the right hand designation" 229 RH.

Adaptors: Left hand and right hand are metal die stamped on the outboard surface, 3/8" letters, in an over/under wording position either "RIGHT SIDE" or "LEFT SIDE". Inside the "cone" of all four adaptors are 5/16" characters, inset cast on the curved flanged surface: "D-49989". There is also an inset cast "square" with something I am not able to identify enclosed in it. That square is followed by a single number, either a "1", "2", or "3". The reinforcement peg/studs are center stamped on the head (inboard side of the adaptor) with a combination "slant AB" and appears as a "double-single" letter.

NOTE: What's unusual is the comparison I made to the information in the Nolan Adam's book (1963-1967), page 368. That shows the oblong circle to contain the correct K-H but shows a different number: D48985. The number I have on all five wheels is D-49985. At this point I don't understand what the difference is. I do know the history, original car (gone to Corvette Heaven) and the only two previous owners of the wheels (which is a whole 'nother story). This is where someone with better knowledge and reference to numbers (Joe?) could be of more help. The numbers on the inner flange of the adaptor cones I have are a closer match (D-49989 to wheels: D-49985) than Nolan's D48985. I thought it might be a typo but he makes a second reference to it right below the first.

Anyhow, I'll try to add info to any questions you might have. Hope this gets you most of the way there. Tom #24014

[Tom B.]

Patrick: 66 KH K/O info

Patrick,

Here is the information for the 1966 set of 5 original KH knock-offs I have. I have an additional note at the bottom also.

Wheels (front side): The dark grey factory paint appears to me to be more "unusual" in a way as compared to the "light-black" (grey) I have seen on reproduction knock-offs. I measured the outer, unpainted, smooth surface "length" of the spokes. That is nearly full length, but other measurement is more difficult. That measurement was 3 13/16" long and the width tapers from 3/16" at the outer rim edge to a wider 7/32" at the base of the cone. The space between the spokes is 1 1/8" at the outer rim edge to a narrower 7/16" at the base of the cone.

Wheels (back side): On the "flat" surface (backside of the center / spokes) I have (deep) metal die stamped dates. Four of them are some version of: B6 (space) xx(numbered date) (space) 65. The other is C6 xx 65. There is a cast, oblong circle (ellipse) containing the raised letters "K-H" and "D-49985". Also, 3 wheels hav a 1/4" stamped square enclosing the stamped letter "H", one wheel has it enclosing a (straight line) letter "I", and one has no such marking. I have a set of radials mounted on the wheels right now and am not able to access the inside of the rims right now.

Spinners: All markings on the backside appear as "inset" cast, as I don't see how deep stamping could be done without risk of breakage. One wing on all spinners appears with a 5/8" circle "pie", full with 6 pieces, followed by a "1". On the wing to the right of those markings are either the left hand designation: 230 LH, or the right hand designation" 229 RH.

Adaptors: Left hand and right hand are metal die stamped on the outboard surface, 3/8" letters, in an over/under wording position either "RIGHT SIDE" or "LEFT SIDE". Inside the "cone" of all four adaptors are 5/16" characters, inset cast on the curved flanged surface: "D-49989". There is also an inset cast "square" with something I am not able to identify enclosed in it. That square is followed by a single number, either a "1", "2", or "3". The reinforcement peg/studs are center stamped on the head (inboard side of the adaptor) with a combination "slant AB" and appears as a "double-single" letter.

NOTE: What's unusual is the comparison I made to the information in the Nolan Adam's book (1963-1967), page 368. That shows the oblong circle to contain the correct K-H but shows a different number: D48985. The number I have on all five wheels is D-49985. At this point I don't understand what the difference is. I do know the history, original car (gone to Corvette Heaven) and the only two previous owners of the wheels (which is a whole 'nother story). This is where someone with better knowledge and reference to numbers (Joe?) could be of more help. The numbers on the inner flange of the adaptor cones I have are a closer match (D-49989 to wheels: D-49985) than Nolan's D48985. I thought it might be a typo but he makes a second reference to it right below the first.

Anyhow, I'll try to add info to any questions you might have. Hope this gets you most of the way there. Tom #24014