Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels? *NM*

[Robert Jorjorian]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Thanks Bill.......I realize that many owners deleted KOs to have their special order car built. I also realize that NCRS put the burden of proof on the owner to prove that it happened ON THEIR PARTICULAR CAR.
Does that mean NCRS thinks 63s were not built with KOs but singles out a 63 owner to prove it was possible? I think everyone agrees not many 63-67 cars have original paperwork so to prove that a particular car did have them is even harder than proving SOME cars had them.Does it take a "real" window sticker or build sheet to prove this. Rather than owners prove they could I wanted to know if NCRS knew you could not.
Getting away from my original question .....does a 67 owner have to PROVE his particular car was built with an aluminum bolt-on wheel with proof above and beyond having the correct wheel/cap/screwdriver and instruction sheet to receive points?
I do not own a 63 that came with KO wheels.My original question was only to see if NCRS had facts to back up their NO KO policy.

[Franz E.]

[Mike M.]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

vin 20301 was ordered with K/O's. the car was eventually delivered to Dixie motors, Mc Donough, Ga on August 8, 1963. the cost of the K/O's was deducted from the pre-determined purchase price as the ZO6 came in with steel wheels and hubcaps. the original owner, Tyler Garrett, purchased 5 K/O's over the counter in the early fall of 63, and installed them on the ZO6. I have spoken to this orignal owner who has nothing to gain at this point in time. I would have loved my ZO6 to have been delivered with the K/O's but it just aint so. as i frequently judge the 63-4 class for the augusta midget, i can state that no 63s have been presented for NCRS judging with K/O's and the owner had documentation that satisfied me that their 63 left st louis with K/O's. the idea that a 63 owner could get a K/O equipped 63 thru Carlton and his judges ceased to exist about 10 years ago. mike

[Ray C.]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Robert,

Because I am a recently new member I have not been involved in the creation of the judging manuals or how the manuals were created. I did how ever complete a restoration on a 1965 with the base 250HP engine last year and I believe that the 1965 JG reference manual is incorrect in reference to intake (#3844457) for the base 250HP engine. I started a survey on this topic in as many corvette web sites, NCRS Driveline and local NCRS Chapter publication. All of the responses from this survey help validate my hypotheses in reference to intake #3866922 and that intake number #3866922 was also on their base 250HP 1965 engine. I would still like more 1965 250HP owners to respond on this survey before I would feel comfortable in submitting it to the NCRS for review. I believe if you would like to see the JG changed in reference to 63 KO you will need to do your homework.

Good luck in your effort in gathering information on the 1963 KO wheels.

Ray #36314

[Robert Jorjorian]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Thanks Mike many 63 owners had the exact same experience you describe BUT in 1986 a well known collector sent me a copy of a 1963 Corvette build sheet WITH option 2P48A and the car was plant delivered on March 11, 1963 WITH KO wheels.
Michael Hanson contacted the original owner and talked at length about the car and the KO wheel deal.
Those wheels went thru 4 revisions and were listed in parts from roughly Oct 62 on. The wheels were on race cars as Franz has stated which probably makes the too dangerous fairy tale just that. I have GM engineering documents from start of production thru end of production for 63 KO wheels and I'm positive the GM documents do not support the NO wheels on a 63 NCRS policy.
I have ZERO interest in selling or showing 63 KO wheels. My point is the build sheet, paperwork and all the engineering papers do not support the NO wheel NCRS position and I have not heard a peep from the other side with FACTS for proof that it was not possible!

[Robert Jorjorian]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Thanks Ray, yes I suppose the burden of proof is on the little guy. I wish you luck in your efforts to straighten out the 65 JG. Somethings are hard to prove and continually getting harder as people and cars get older. The pool of unaltered original stuff is running low.
I think it only fair that a position on judging be backed by facts, and the burden of proof be the same for everyone.

[Franz E.]

[Michael H.]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Thanks Bill, I guess I didn't understand the policy on the judging. That sounds like an excellent way to handle it. In a way, I'm glad to see it because I really don't think ko wheels look good on a 63 and I'm sure everyone is beginning to feel the same way about KO wheels in general. Of all the New Corvettes in my home town in the 60's, and there were a bunch, NONE had KO wheels.

Michael

[Sydney G.]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Bill,
I believe the car you are refering to is serial #55, the Knudsen special order Coupe with the Cadilac Saddle paint and custom weave interior, ac and automatic. I have had it on my '63 list for a very long time and I seem to recall that it was featured in Vette magazine about 8 or 9 years ago. A very stunning color!

Syd

[Loren L.]

The Phrase is "BUILT WITH" - ALL of the

wheels you refer to exited out of Michigan Engineering, NOT St Louis.

[Duke W.]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

In the latter part of February 1963 I had a meeting with Alan Green and Don Campbell of Alan Green Chevrolet in Seattle to discuss special ordering a 1963 Corvette Coupe for plant delivery. A basic price algorithm was negotitated, but the one issue was my desire to include "quick take off wheels" on my order. They requested time to check on availability and get back to me. Several days later they responded that the KO wheels were not yet released for production and there was no estimated release date. If I ordered the car with P-48 the order would be delayed until the wheels were released. Given the uncertain future for KOs and my desire to have the car ASAP, I decided to place the order without KOs, and my purchase order was completed and signed on February 28. My car was built on March 19 as per my copy of the production order. Given my experience I find it quite interesting that you have a "build sheet" for a March 11 built car with KOs.

How about scanning and posting it!

You seem to have an axe to grind. The fact remains that despite various heresay, such as what you have presented, NO ONE had EVER presented any bonafide documentation that a regular production 1963 Corvette, built for sale to the public, was ever equipped with KO wheels from the plant.

You can rail all you want and present all the heresay you want, but the burden of proof for plant installed KOs on a '63 Corvette is on the shoulders of any owner who presents such a car on the judging field and, so far, no one has ever met the burden of prove with bonafide documentation.

Duke

[Loren L.]

How about a 1980's vintage letter from

the president of Kelsey-Hayes stating that NO two bar KO's were ever delivered to Chevrolet that were not gear drive and that NO KO'S were delivered to St Louis until the 1964 model year? And could we please see
the copy of the build sheet - or is it just one of those where KO wheels was not lined out - or did we keep making copies until the crossout was deleted...........

[Michael H.]

Re: The Phrase is "BUILT WITH" - ALL of the

Loren,

The set of wheels that I was refering too, did indeed exit the St. Louis plant, not the engineering center. Of this I am sure. This car, a March car, was absolutely assembled with, and left the plant with, KO wheels. It's well documented and it was NOT a special GM show car. It was a plant delivery to a retail customer.

Michael

[Duke W.]

Re: The Phrase is "BUILT WITH" - ALL of the

Loren makes the key point. No doubt racing teams and perhaps others with close ties to GM got prototype and experimental parts that were supplied in boxes to be installed on the car by the customer, or some cars may have received post production line preparation where prototype or experimental parts were installed.

This is like the argument over Penske's '66 Coupe. Many claim it is the first L-88. The period data I have on the car indicates that it was built with L-72 and all the other HD options, all of which were released RPOs. I've been through the owners' six-inch thick notebook, and there is nothing there that proves unequivocally that a L-88 was installed at St. Louis.

The same for '63 KO wheels.

Duke

[William C.]

Re: Who has factual proof no 63 had KO wheels?

Actually, when I saw it in the '60s it could best be described as ugly. It sat at the used car lot on Woodward for a long tome, between 13 mile and 15 mile somewhere. About 1965