My 1958 Corvette has documentation from the original owner. It had 2 Cosmetic Restorations. One in 1972 and one in 1991. (Paint touch ups & detailing) It's about a #2+ car, being very close to a #1. It has no reproduction parts on it. It has never been judged and would be fun to do so. I currently work for GM (see profile)in Flint. The Engine mount bracket that is behind the water pump is black, not orange. I have never changed the color of this bracket, but I have been told by Corvette enthusists that it was incorrect. I work at GM Truck Assembly formerly Chevrolet & Fisher Body. The engine was made next door at the former Chevrolet V8 Engine Plant. I don't remember the status on the 305 V8's but the people I work with, came over from the V8 when it had closed and told me "when the engine went into paint", "we painted the whole engine orange with the bracket". "At times we would run out of the brackets from the stamping plant and we would send the water pumps unbolted, down the line, to be painted when the mount brackets came in". "They were assembled at that time on the engine, without being repainted to the orange color". Meaning black dip was correct. Can anyone give me info on this subject or if this was correct? Also what the NCRS standard is?
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
James,
If your car has been delivered with a black bracket than that's correct (also for the NCRS I believe). The problem is how can you be sure it hasn't been replaced or replainted. If you can prove it was delivered with a black bracket than please do so!
By the way I would die to hear more story of your colleagues about the engines of Corvette and the procedures building them! So ask the shirt of their body (Dutch expression) keep those stories comming!!!
greetings,
Rob Musquetier
The NetherlandsRob.
NCRS Dutch Chapter Founder & Board Member
NCRS Software Developer
C1, C2 and C3 Registry Developer -
Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
James,
If your car has been delivered with a black bracket than that's correct (also for the NCRS I believe). The problem is how can you be sure it hasn't been replaced or replainted. If you can prove it was delivered with a black bracket than please do so!
By the way I would die to hear more story of your colleagues about the engines of Corvette and the procedures building them! So ask the shirt of their body (Dutch expression) keep those stories comming!!!
greetings,
Rob Musquetier
The NetherlandsRob.
NCRS Dutch Chapter Founder & Board Member
NCRS Software Developer
C1, C2 and C3 Registry DeveloperComment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
James,
The engine mount would not judge as correct with the black paint unless you could prove that your particular car left the factory it painted black. The number of these mounts that have survived all these years without corroding or cracking around the waterpump holes are fairly small, so it is very likely that this is a reproduction piece. The only GM part that has been available for many, many years, has been the 62 style mount with the half-round cutout in the top of the mount for the nipple coming out of the top of the 62 style pump. It was a perfectly functional piece and no one was worried about it until the restoration craze really started going wild. That left only the repro market to supply the correct style mount, and I believe that Paragon is the only company who has produced them. The Paragon mount has their logo stamped into the vertical portion of the mount, so if you pull it off to paint it, you will be able to verify.
Regards, John McGrawComment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
James,
The engine mount would not judge as correct with the black paint unless you could prove that your particular car left the factory it painted black. The number of these mounts that have survived all these years without corroding or cracking around the waterpump holes are fairly small, so it is very likely that this is a reproduction piece. The only GM part that has been available for many, many years, has been the 62 style mount with the half-round cutout in the top of the mount for the nipple coming out of the top of the 62 style pump. It was a perfectly functional piece and no one was worried about it until the restoration craze really started going wild. That left only the repro market to supply the correct style mount, and I believe that Paragon is the only company who has produced them. The Paragon mount has their logo stamped into the vertical portion of the mount, so if you pull it off to paint it, you will be able to verify.
Regards, John McGrawComment
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"very small"?
Mine is the original, last time I had it off was 15 years ago, very minor corrosion which the gasket and sealer have kept sealed since. Am I just lucky?Comment
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"very small"?
Mine is the original, last time I had it off was 15 years ago, very minor corrosion which the gasket and sealer have kept sealed since. Am I just lucky?Comment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
This mount was on the car before Paragon exsisted.(1972) I live 16 mi. away from Paragon. The question was not if is was original, but was pertaining to the color.Comment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
This mount was on the car before Paragon exsisted.(1972) I live 16 mi. away from Paragon. The question was not if is was original, but was pertaining to the color.Comment
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Re: "very small"?
David,
Just semantics, but I said fairly small not very small. I still would contend that there are way more non-original mounts than original ones. It is becoming a rarity to pull one off a car these days and finding it to be original and in good servicable condition With all the restoration that has gone on for the last 20 years, most restorers replaced the mounts if there was any doubt in their mind as to wether it would be a servicable part. There are allways those cars that have almost every part they left the factory with, but those cars like yours are most assuredly in the minority. James, my comments were only meant to help explain how your mount came to be black. It could have well been that a previous restorer just liked black better than orange, but all the replacement and repro mounts were painted black. In the future I will try to limit my answers to only the exact question asked.
Regards, John McGrawComment
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Re: "very small"?
David,
Just semantics, but I said fairly small not very small. I still would contend that there are way more non-original mounts than original ones. It is becoming a rarity to pull one off a car these days and finding it to be original and in good servicable condition With all the restoration that has gone on for the last 20 years, most restorers replaced the mounts if there was any doubt in their mind as to wether it would be a servicable part. There are allways those cars that have almost every part they left the factory with, but those cars like yours are most assuredly in the minority. James, my comments were only meant to help explain how your mount came to be black. It could have well been that a previous restorer just liked black better than orange, but all the replacement and repro mounts were painted black. In the future I will try to limit my answers to only the exact question asked.
Regards, John McGrawComment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
The engine mount bracket and water pump were in place when the engine was painted, and that's what the judging standard calls for; on the judging field, the burden of proof for deviations from what is known to be factory production practice is the responsibility of the owner.
I worked across the driveway from you (Chevrolet Pilot Line) from '66-'69; sure looks bleak to drive down Van Slyke these days and see that building gone, along with the huge empty space that was Flint V-8Comment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
The engine mount bracket and water pump were in place when the engine was painted, and that's what the judging standard calls for; on the judging field, the burden of proof for deviations from what is known to be factory production practice is the responsibility of the owner.
I worked across the driveway from you (Chevrolet Pilot Line) from '66-'69; sure looks bleak to drive down Van Slyke these days and see that building gone, along with the huge empty space that was Flint V-8Comment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
There are several organizations that conduct factory concours judging of Corvettes and NCRS is but one. To a large extent, we're unique in that our judging rules are published while other groups pretty much rely on the personal knowlege of those who judge. To this end, the answer to your question (how would we deal with a straight axle car having a front cross support NOT painted Chevy orange) is down on paper....
From the NCRS Judging Reference Manual: Section 2, Rule 2, NCRS Judging Standard.
"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped, at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes."
Note the term 'normal'.... This means we look for 'typical' factory production in each vehicle. This is further clarified in the same book: Section 2, Rule 20, Documentation.
"In all cases, the owner is solely responsible for providing any supporting documentation, if requested, to the judges which may help substantiate the legitimacy of any judged item on their car whose appearance or condition falls outside that which is normally associated with a standard production-line Corvete, in compliance with our Judging Standard, as perceived the judging team. [balance of text of rule redacted"
So, you look at a given component, read what the governing Judging Reference Manual has to say about it and go from there. I think you'll find all of the JG books from the straight axle Corvette era call for the front cross member engine support to be painted engine color as this was the production 'norm'.
That would invoke Section 2, Rule 20 meaning the burden of proof falls upon you, as owner, to document that your car left the St. Louis final assy line with an unpainted cross member.
In the end, the issue has a VERY small impact on the car's overall judging score--maybe 1-2 points out of 4500 total! There's no way that such a small deviation is going to harm the bottom line or do more than foster a friendly general discussion.
We all know there were individual cases of variation on the assy line, but NCRS has to put a stake in the ground to define standards to judge by. So, whether right or wrong, we focus on 'TYPICAL' factory production and leave the individual instances or 'atypical' production as a burden of proof on the owner....
Hope this answers your question!Comment
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Re: The Engine Mount Bracket Behind The Water Pump
There are several organizations that conduct factory concours judging of Corvettes and NCRS is but one. To a large extent, we're unique in that our judging rules are published while other groups pretty much rely on the personal knowlege of those who judge. To this end, the answer to your question (how would we deal with a straight axle car having a front cross support NOT painted Chevy orange) is down on paper....
From the NCRS Judging Reference Manual: Section 2, Rule 2, NCRS Judging Standard.
"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped, at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes."
Note the term 'normal'.... This means we look for 'typical' factory production in each vehicle. This is further clarified in the same book: Section 2, Rule 20, Documentation.
"In all cases, the owner is solely responsible for providing any supporting documentation, if requested, to the judges which may help substantiate the legitimacy of any judged item on their car whose appearance or condition falls outside that which is normally associated with a standard production-line Corvete, in compliance with our Judging Standard, as perceived the judging team. [balance of text of rule redacted"
So, you look at a given component, read what the governing Judging Reference Manual has to say about it and go from there. I think you'll find all of the JG books from the straight axle Corvette era call for the front cross member engine support to be painted engine color as this was the production 'norm'.
That would invoke Section 2, Rule 20 meaning the burden of proof falls upon you, as owner, to document that your car left the St. Louis final assy line with an unpainted cross member.
In the end, the issue has a VERY small impact on the car's overall judging score--maybe 1-2 points out of 4500 total! There's no way that such a small deviation is going to harm the bottom line or do more than foster a friendly general discussion.
We all know there were individual cases of variation on the assy line, but NCRS has to put a stake in the ground to define standards to judge by. So, whether right or wrong, we focus on 'TYPICAL' factory production and leave the individual instances or 'atypical' production as a burden of proof on the owner....
Hope this answers your question!Comment
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