Engine #

[Michael H.]

Real or Fake

Yes Mike, but there are two sides to this. The people that DO have their genuine original block don't see this exactly the same as the people with the restamps. They feel that their car is in a slightly different category than a car that has a restamped block and I must agree with their views. I have two cars with the original blocks and one car that does not have the original so I have a pretty good feel for what this is all about. The car with the incorrect block has a very correct NEVER STAMPED service replacement in it so all it would need is to have the numbers hammered into it but I refuse to do it. To me, that doesn't make it the original block, even if it would sail through NCRS or Bloomington Gold as "undetectable". If I ever sell the car and the new owner wants to hammer the numbers into it, that's his business but it's not for me. It is what it is.

The ONLY reason people restamp blocks is for resale value and I'm glad that both of the major Corvette judging organizations spend the time to uncover the fraud. There's nothing wrong with owning a Corvette that doesn't have the original block but I'll never agree with the restamp theory to try to pass it off as original. If it's a fake, admit the truth and see if it's done well enough to pass judging. If it's not, go back home and restore the number pad again until it does pass but don't try to convince the world that it's the same block that the car was born with.

[Dick W.]

Re: Real or Fake

Michael, I have to agree with you. I have no problems with "restoration" engines as long as the owner is up front with it. What I do have a problem with is "Bubba's Corvette Sales" or who ever, presenting a car with a restoration engine to "Joe Babes in the Woods" first time Corvette buyer, as an original engine. And then "Joe" takes his car to NCRS or BG and gets a real quick education on engines. It hurts the hobby, makes the judges (at least me) feel bad.

Some of you are lucky that you have cars with the original engines. I have been lucky less than 50% of the time. All the solid lifter engines were trashed at some point prior to me finding them. All the hydraulic lifter engine cars still had/have their original engines. Goes back to what I have said for years, the high horsepower engines were to have fun with, use and abuse, and otherwise "rag out". The L/88 that we owned had at least seven engines that I knew of. With just five owners. Lotsa smiles on previous owners faces though.

[Michael H.]

"Bubba's Corvette Sales"

Yes, right on target Dick. That was the exact mental picture I had when I wrote the last response. The guy chewin on the cigar, dressed in early 70's clothes with gold pants, accepting his Top Flight or BG Gold and rushing back home to put the car on the front row of Bubba's Used Up Cars inc. It's an insult to the people that have the real cars and a rip off for first time buyers. It's not our fault that the correct original block became such an issue over the years but that's what happened and that's the way it is. Well, maybe I did have a little to do with it. (a lot to do with it I guess) It just makes a rare car even more rare when it does have the original block.

[Mike Cobine]

Re: Real or Fake

Yes, but that is a path I didn't want to go down.

You have split between the path of restoration and the path of monetary value and authentication.

NCRS is supposed to be about restoration and preservation. Nothing about authenticating a car for monetary purposes. I've been told there are words to that effect on each award.

So from that standpoint, judging should be on whether the restoration is correct. It should not be based on trying to detect fraud in engine stampings or ownership transfers. If Bo sells Tim a car and passes it off to him as originally red, it isn't our responsibility to judge the value, but rather to see if the car reflects how it came from the factory. Obviously, if the car is red and the paint code is for blue, it reflects the factory spec poorly and is properly deducted. It isn't our responsibility to tell Tim that his car is worth $xxxx less because it is the wrong color, only to tell him it does not match the original factory specification for this car. We are not even responsible to tell him it has been repainted or whether the paint is original, only on whether it matches the original specifications for that car.

That is the purpose of an auto appraiser and between the purchaser and apparaiser. If Joe Babe wants to lay down $75,000 for a car because Tommy Appraiser says it has the original engine and is worth more, then so be it. That isn't NCRS' problem. Determining authenticity is not NCRS's responsibility. DEtermining how well a car is restored is. Does it match how the car would have appeared when it was built?

If Tommy then brings his car to a judging event, it should be judged to how accurately it matches a factory car. If the engine is original, it should match exactly. If it isn't original, then points deducted in accordance to the deviation from factory. We should not be trying to determine originality but rather how much it accurately reflects the factory look of that car when it was built.

(That is to eliminate building "I wish I had" cars.)

We have mixed the "original = value" ideas into "restoration" ideas.

The problem is that the numbers in the block has ceased to indicate 100% originality a long time ago, but the myth still persists.

[Mike Cobine]

Re: "Bubba's Corvette Sales"

It's not our fault that the correct original block became such an issue over the years

I think it is because of the unequal judging the engine pad gets compared to other parts of the car. Frames get changed frequently in cars today due to rust, but how many are checked for serial numbers?

Does anyone check for date stamps on the backs of the instrument panel? Backsides of door panels?

Yet the block gets scrutiny in a near microscopic way to determine flaws in stamp fonts, broach marks, and so on. Not to determine whether the engien gets 500 pts or 501 points, but to determine if it is original or not, in which case there is either a lot of points or few points. There is a huge step. And that step has been allowed and even encouraged in years gone by, to equate to $$$.

[Rick S.]

Re: "Bubba's Corvette Sales"

Mike, I agree with most of what you say but how does the NCRS or its members root out the person trying to commit fraud? I wish we had a easy fix to numbers matching. I face a similar problem on what I believe to be a typo on my trim tag. I have talked to the first owner who bought the car off the showroom floor as a green car even though the trim tag shows yellow, one digit off. I also talked to the second owner who bought the car approx 18 months later and it was still green and he had no reason to paint the entire car. I have the tank sticker (off the car, not on the tank) showing it as green. The car has all numbers matching, correct date codes,POP, etc but I have a diminished value car because of a typo. When I go for judging the 1st time,will I need notarized letters from these previous owners or isn't that enough to prove the correct color. So like the heading says, REAL or FAKE???

[Mike Cobine]

Real or Fake - they are all fake

It isn't the purpose of NCRS to seek out and reveal those commiting fraud. It is the purpose of this oranization to maintain the "preservation, restoration, and history of Corvette". The primary activity is to have judging meets where cars are judged on how accurately they depict each particular car when it was first built at the factory XX years ago.

Two examples:
A red '67 coupe 400 hp 4 speed with air and a blue '67 convertible 435 hp.

For the purpose of this example, we know the 400 hp coupe began life as a 327-300hp with Powerglide. However, this is a high dollar conversion that uses every part from a 400 hp donor car.

Also the 435 hp blew the engine in 1970 and is now replaced with a service block and a blank pad that has been stamped correctly with the right numbers.

NCRS' responsibility is to detect the coupe was really a small block and does NOT accurately depict how the car was originally assembled in 1967.

NCRS' responsibility is to detect the convertible was originally a 435 hp car and the current configuration accurately depicts how it was in 1967.

The both are fake. Both would be fraud if the owners try to sell them by saying the cars are original. The coupe is fraud is the owner tries to sell as "restored" as it isn't. The coupe is not fraud if the owner tries to sell as restored, as long as he states the engine is not original or does not try to imply the engine is original.

These are legal problems.

NCRS is not a law firm and is not in the business of dealing in legal problems.

In your case, judging has NOTHING to do with value. NCRS does not assign value to a car. It only judges the accuracy with which the car matches the known specifications of the car when built. In judging, a copy of the build sheet should be enough to indicate the trim tag is a deviaton, or error. I don't know how a judging team would really handle it. But they do not assign value, nor can they diminish the value of your car.

The diminished value is something hard to prove. Did you sell the car once for $40,000 and now you can only sell it for $30,000 because someone changed the tag? That would be diminished value. Someone or something had to happen to it to drop the value to be diminished value.

That is why NCRS judgine does NOT assign value.. Otherwise they would be in trouble for diminished value all the time because people frequently buy Corvettes at values much higher than the condition of the car merits.

If you base it on you buying at $40,000 and now you can only sell at $30,000, sorry, won't cut it. Millions of people buy cars for more than what they can sell.

What I would do if I were you is to collect the paperwork you can, get letters if the first owner will give it, and present those at the show to show the tag is a "factory error". When you sell, play up the "factory error" because someone will think this great and pay more.

As to real or fake, there is only one original. Restoration in cars destroys originality. Original paint is stripped. Worn out original parts are replaced with reproduction parts. Pieces are remachined and reassembled with non-original parts. Parts are replated with new materials.

They may closely resemble the original, and they may accurately depict the way the car was when built, but they are not original in the strictest sense.

[Mike Cobine]

Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

The both are fake. Both would be fraud if the owners try to sell them by saying the cars are original. The coupe is fraud is the owner tries to sell as "restored" as it isn't. The coupe is not fraud if the owner tries to sell as restored, as long as he states the engine is not original or does not try to imply the engine is original.

That should be:
The both are fake. Both would be fraud if the owners try to sell them by saying the cars are original. The coupe is fraud is the owner tries to sell as "restored" as it isn't. The convertible is not fraud if the owner tries to sell as restored, as long as he states the engine is not original or does not try to imply the engine is original but only restored.

[Michael H.]

Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

Mike,

This is starting to be a very interesting thread. The only problem is, it's so far down the tree that very few people are going to see it. I think it would be an interesting topic to start fresh so that all the members can add their thoughts.

Michael

[Rick S.]

Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

Mike,
I agree with your comments and example and would have expanded from my original post but I got tired of typing and thinking after a hard day at the office!!!! I'll get thru this but it's the process of getting there.

Thanks again,
Rick

[Brian M.]

Re: "Bubba's Corvette Sales"

I'm sure a litte detective work would reveal the original color. Look the clues are there.

[Rick S.]

Re: "Bubba's Corvette Sales"

Brian,
After talking to the first 2 owners and a hard look at the car for any different color clues, there is no doubt in my mind the color was/is green.
Regards,
Rick

[Mike Cobine]

Tank Sticker

I think since Rick says the tank sticker says green then it probably is green and the tag was a stamping error.

[Brian M.]

Re: Tank Sticker

I think it makes an interesting car.

[Brian M.]

Re: Tank Sticker

By the way what color interior?