Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

**Bill Baird** · September 17, 2000, 04:52 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

I can assure you that when it comes time to repaint my car, it will be with a base coat/clear coat paint (assuming that is the current technology when I go to do that). I'll admit I'm not heavily into the judging scene, so the points deduction is irrelevant to me.

Bill Baird

**Paul R Ouzts** · September 17, 2000, 04:52 PM

Re: As new paint formulations advance......

so will the finish on my car follow the trend. Those old paints are archaic at best - thats why the new ones exist on the newer Vettes.

**Michael W.** · September 17, 2000, 04:52 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

Don't want to snow in your driveway, but base/clear paint is also subject to aging/chipping/peeling/cracking etc.

I don't think that durability is really an issue here, a good lacquer paint job can outlast the owner of the car, if it is well taken care of. To me, the big advantage of base/clear is that it takes less work to keep it pretty-looking.

Why should NCRS relax paint standards just because a newer technology product is easier to take care of, and is prettier?

Mike

NCRS Quebec Chapter

**Jack H.** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

Yeah, and let's take no deduction for a big hole hacked in the hood with a Welland supercharger plenum protruding! Point is, the objective of Flight is to make the car 'appear' factory original and that consumes both the good and the bad points of the technology of the era. The operative in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual and Judging Guides is 'obvious' use of clear coating -- this is what you get with a 2-step (color + clear) paint process.

On driving, the bonus points are there to encourage the use of these cars and compensate the owner for the wear/tear/risk of putting it on the street. Of course, it doesn't add to the car's factory originality and that's why these points are ignored when cars vie for the top restoration marque of the club, Mark of Excellence....

**Bill Baird** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

I would agree with you if lacquer paint was readily available, or if the government wasn't taking such active steps to get lacquer paint out of use. NCRS, however, will have to deal with the fact that lacquer paint is going away. We might be able to stick our heads in the sand a while longer, but it is a subject that will need to be addressed. I do actually believe that we should get as close to factory original as possible, but we do need to take into account political realities as well.

Bill Baird

**Duke W.** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

The Concours Guidelines I recently wrote for the Cosworth Vega Owners' Association allows refinishing with paint products that duplicate "the original look and feel" of the OEM acrylic laquer, specifically:

"A finishing system that does not closely match the original

depth and gloss shall be considered to be non-authentic. In

general, clearcoat finishing systems do not closely match the

original acrylic lacquer depth and gloss"

Modern catylized enamel systems can usually be color matched and look very similar to buffed lacquer, but clearcoat jobs usually look different. I've talked to some expert painters who say they can visually tell the difference between lacquer and single stage enamel, but others say if the enamel is applied "right" you can't tell the difference. I don't think a lacquer job will outlive most of us, but a catylized acrylic enamel or polyurethane enamal job probably will. In addition to the durability issue, it's basically illegal for most California shops to spray lacquer because the level of VOC (volatile organic compounds) will bust their emission standards. I'm watching this issue with great interest, as my '63 is ready for paint and I can't resolve the dilemma.

Duke

**Carmen Filletti** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

Jack, So what your saying is that if I can make my clear coat paint 'appear' to be lacquer, ie. dull the jambs, put some color on them so it polishes off on a rag, then that's OK? Even though we both know the car was painted with lacquer at the factory. I seem to be missing something then. Doesn't that create a huge gray area? It may 'appear' like lacquer to one judge and not to another. See the problem. Either its acceptable or it isn't. If the judge asks me if its clear coat, am I to respond 'It Appears to be lacquer', knowing full well its not. Enlighten me, cause I still don't get it !!!

**Bill Baird** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

But that is a problem with judging anything on a car. What is correct to one judge is not always that way to another. If a TI distributor appears to be original, then it will be deemed okay, even if it has more modern electronics stuffed inside of it. If car's paint appears to be original, then what is the difference if it is lacquer or not?

Bill Baird

**Jerry** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Durability

Ever wet sand bas/clear vs. lacquer, I think you will deciede quickly which is tougher. Done both

Jerry

**George Daina** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Here's a vote for good ol' laquer.....

granted the base coat clear coat MAY look better than laquer, but then laquer wasn't shot with a coat of clear either. A good laquer finish will match up with any new paint technology as far as looks.

Ok, the point was stated that laquer will crack over time...wrong...not if you apply the correct amount of paint. The max paint thickness is 4 mill. That's about 4 good heavy coats with a 40-60 paint/thinner mixture. After applying the 4 coats, apply another 3-4 coats with a 30-70 mixture. Wait a minimum 30 days, use 1200 grit wet/dry paper and sand till finish is smooth, then buff.

I've been using 3M's buffing system for clear coat on laquer, swirl free and looks as if the finish has clear. Just finished sanding my 68 w/1200 and the first step of three in the polishing process, let me tell you, not a ripple, and the shine, well as the good ol' boys would say sho' shines like a.. like a...well, you get the picture, and I've still got two steps to go.

A friend of mine has a pristine 66 and a 97, this guy is Mr. Fussbucket, his 66 has a better finish than his 97. When waxed and taken care, laquer will stand up to any newer paint technology in shine, brilliance, and color depth.

**Jerry** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Here's a vote for good ol' laquer.....

But, But, George, according to NCRS guidlines you can't use 1200 grit paper it wasn't available thirty years ago not to mention the 3M buffing system...

Devils Advocate

**Don Lemek** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

If you want to change that why deduct if I take off my original fuel injection and install new technology electronic fuel injection? They have to draw the line.

**Everett Ogilvie** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

This is a tough one, and I will be facing this paint question in the near future on a restoration of my own. Generally I am a PURIST. If all my little numbers, stampings, finishes and dates are not correct, I am uneasy, restless, and maybe even unhappy! So it would seem I am in favor of original types of paint. Maybe I should be, but I am still on the fence. I don't have the technical knowledge to know whether or not lacquer can be made to last as long as modern finishes as some folks here say, but it seems as if your painter does not do everything exactly right with lacquer, then it may not last. And this is assuming that he KNOWS what to do in the first place.

I think there are two key issues/questions; first, the price tag of a good paint job may very well be the highest single ticket item on your car. If this is true, why would anyone pay the big bucks for a finish that may not last; for 70 points? Most guys probably only want to go through the cost and the trauma of painting their car one time. Having to repaint your car if an original style lacquer finish wears out, is quite different and much more expensive than putting on belts, tires, new seat covers, or small items with incorrect finishes. Secondly, and perhaps most important, what happens if and when the supply of lacquer runs out, especially in every conceivable owner's color, OR when it truly becomes illegal to apply this type of paint?

**Bill Baird** · September 17, 2000, 04:53 PM

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

I'm all for originality, but I think Everett is asking the correct queston - what do we plan to do if/when it becomes illegal to use lacquer paint?

Bill Baird

Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

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