Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

[Chris S.]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

First and foremost, eventually laq. will be gone - count on it. Today's tech is base/clear. There are also pleny of great single stage systems out there. I am very very close to this industry, and am in plenty of collision and restoration shops every day. I hear the constant arguement - one vs the other - fine - OK - what are you going to do when water bore based paints get here???? Dont think so. Think again. Ever sprayed it? I have---good luck trying to repro your 50's -60's factory finish. It's here and we will have to deal with it. Been to California lately??? Personally - I will have to cross this bridge in the future with my frame off project - I have the best single stage sys avail to me, will I use it??? Depends. If you want an almost maint free paint and want durablity, gloss, and depth - I choose base/clear. If you are chasing points - use the old system. But dont rule out single stages. If you are in areas that already have smog checks - just wait til water-bored gets here. Then you will have something to talk about.

[Bill Baird]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

Thank you John. It's good to hear (read?) another voice asking the same question. Does anyone have any suggestions? Right now in Indiana, you can't but lacquer paint unless you go through a bit of paperwork certifying that it's for a car restoration project. That's all well and good, but it certainly doesn't bode well for it's continued legal availability. What should the NCRS's response be if lacquer becomes generally illegal to buy/use?


Bill Baird

[Duke W.]

So how about using a single stage...

...enamal. Mix in flattener to paint the jambs and other areas that were not buffed by the factory. I know I'm the new kid on the block and I'm not trying to start a revolution, but if expert judges have to swipe the paint with a lacquer thinner dampened rag to verify the binder type, have we gone too far(?), notwithstanding the fact that most California shops can't even use it anymore. Then again, if I go with lacquer I can paint the '63 in my garage and save five grand. I'm still undecided.


Duke

[Chris S.]

Re: So how about using a single stage...

Single stage is very forgiving.. it can be buffed, polished, flatened, deglossed, etc... if it runs - wet sand it - reshoot it - if you burn through it - spot it - I am giving serious thoughts to single stage - ( my veh is white ) - For the metallic color folks it still is debate.

[Everett Ogilvie]

Yo George

I recall your post about that '66 with good, old original paint. I too have seen some unrestored cars with excellent paint (at Waco this year I saw more unrestored orginal '67 tri-powers than I knew existed, including a 17K mile car with beautiful paint). And I agree that most likely the early owner of my car is responsible for most of the damage. I think my main question is if that particular black paint of the time had specific problems. Anyway, I am totally happy with my car regardless, and don't plan to restore it, including the paint, but once in a while it is tempting to visualize it with new paint...


When the time comes for my '69 to be painted, guess I will make the call then. Maybe I should see if I can locate some Monza Red lacquer now. Why should the paint be put into pint cans, will this make it store better?

[Terry M.]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

Well Carmin you sure did stir the pot.


For those who care to "put up" some lacqure while it is availabe - I am told one should put up primer as well - there is a story in The Restorer on that subject:


Vol. 14, Number 1 - Summer 1987 "Storing Paint for Future Use"


Terry

[Steven S.]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

You are correct about water base color coats. They are already here as far as we are concerned. I have been sampling reology modifiers for metalflake flop control for these coatings. They will be on cars soon and in a few years will move into the body shop industry for repairs and repaints.

[John H.]

Re: Stir the Pot (with Waterborne in it)

Nearly ALL high-volume OEM paint shops, both domestic and in Europe and Japan, have already converted to water-borne base coat material - many as far back as seven or eight years ago; VOC emission regulations made this change mandatory. Waterborne requires very exotic controls in spray booths to maintain temperature within 3 degrees and humidity within 4%, plus heated flash between coats to drive off moisture. Clearcoats are still solvent-borne, requiring very costly catalytic incinerators for booth/oven exhausts; millions are being spent to develop either waterborne or powder clearcoats to eliminate the costs of after-treatment of current clearcoat booth/oven vapors, but none are there yet. If you bought a new car within the last four years, chances are better than 90% that it has waterborne base color coat. Used to be so simple.....not any more.

[George Daina]

Reason I store the paint in pints......

once you open the can, the paint will tend to age or dry up. If you store the paint in pints, you only use what you need, and leave the others alone.

[Jack H.]

Come on guy!

This has to be the biggest 'gimme' area in concours judging. We hardly ever take 'appropriate' deductions in 'restored' category (Flight) for surface appearance. We all know these were 'kit' cars that left the factory with lunar surface orange peel, non-uniform final paint coating density, the ocassional 'blow hole' along bond seams. There's probably not a Top Flight/Mark Of Excellence car out there (including mine) that couldn't reasonably be 'hit' for over restoration in exterior paint.


BUT, we all cut each other 'slack' (including our NCCB friends at Bloomington) based on the criteria of COULD it have left the factory that way. We know there WERE 'brass hat' (VIP) cars that got QA/QC hand walks down the final line. Plus, it's VERY hard for a pro painter or owner/restorer putting his/her $$$/reputation into a job, to legitimately duplicate a TRUE factory original 'quality' paint job.


I suspect you're engaged in tongue-in-cheek humor with this portion of the thread, but there are novices out there reading. Want to make sure each side of a position gets equal time.... A paint job like you're talking showing up in factory original concours areas (Bowtie, NCRS; Survivor, NCCB) is VERY likely to extract a full originality deduct....

[Larry Boden]

Re: Stir the Pot (if it's available)

All this dicussion about lacquer paint is kind of moot for those of us who live in Canada. I'm not sure if it is a banned product yet but I can tell you from experience that it is simply not available. Those who are still willing to use it must have an unbelieveably expensive spray booth to meet with enviromental concerns. None seem to be willing to put out this tremendous expense when lacquer demands are low and now seem to be vertually extinct. So NCRS may have to consider a finish that appears to be original no matter what the process used to acheive that finish. Some of the acrylics do not need clear coat and polish out to look just like lacquer. Short of chipping off a piece of your paint and testing it, who is to tell?


Larry

[George Daina]

Jack, Jack, Jack....

you fail to see the humor...Jerry and I are having fun, a parody on the judging, nothing more.

[Jack H.]

Car next to me....

When I took L-78 to Chicago for Gold Spinner/Triple Crown, the '66 BB next to me was one owner Tux black coupe with 9000 original miles and factory original paint. Looked GOOD (too good)!


I chatted with owner (an interesting fella -- how can you take delivery of a new '66 Corvette at age 18 and never drive it? He actually told me a cognant story about why/how) and made the comment the paint looked TOO GOOD!


He smiled and directed me here/there where I could see 'curious' flakes of dust. He told me to 'blow them off' -- they didn't budge! They were primer showing through!!!


He said the factory original paint was so BAD (lunar surface orange peel) that he had to buff, and buff, and buff to get it looking 'right'. And, in some areas he started to burn through because original application of paint was thin/cheap/fast. Then, I was directed to look at 'non-cosmetic' surfaces (rear valenance panel and under front bumpers). Yep, 'lunar surface orange peel!!!!


But, ALL was intact without evidence of spider web and/or shrink crack. My take is much deals with the degree of maintenance (periodic wax/buff) the car sees as well as stress (road use causing glass panels to flex against hard drying lacquer surface).

[George Daina]

Jack, I can't believe this....

we agree on something. Must be Y2K or something like that.

[Tom B.]

Re: Is it time to say............

.......Uncle? TBarr