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Corvettes and Mustangs

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  • Joe L.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • February 1, 1988
    • 43193

    Corvettes and Mustangs

    I must say that I'm very impressed with the new Mustang from a styling perspective. I think that it's a great looking car and "unmistakably Mustang". I would not describe it as a "retro" car as some folks seem inclined to describe it. That's because the Mustang has been "unmistakably Mustang" all along. Each generation of the Mustang has had strong styling similarities to the original, even the anemic Mustang II of the mid-70's. When every generation of a car has strong styling similarities to its progenitor, then you can't really call the current edition a "retro" car; they're all "retro" to the original.

    Thinking about it, that may be where the Corvette and Camaro "went wrong". The 2nd generation Corvette was a radical styling departure from the first generation, save for the 61-62 rear (which I believe was "tacked-on" to the car to "prepare" folks for the 1963 model). In any event, to a casual (or, not so casual) observer, you could have put a C1 and C2 side-by-side and folks would be hard-pressed to see any styling commonality or "lineage".

    The same thing occurred in the change from C2 to C3. As was the case with the C2, the C3 was an awesome looking car when it firt debuted, but it bore very little styling resemblence to its predecessors. About all there was was 4 round tail lights and pop-up headlights (although configured competely differently than C2).

    The C4 change was equally a "clean sheet of paper" design. There was very little in the way of design commonality with the Corvette forebearers. Once again, about all that continued was the 4 round tail lights and pop up headlamps. Otherwise, there was no obvious "lineage".

    The change to C5 was another dramatic departure in styling, although the change to C6 is more evolutionary. There are distinct styling similarities between the C5 and C6, but VERY FEW which really have any commonality in design with earlier generations. What it boils down to is that if you were to put, say, a 1957 Corvette side-by-side with a 2005, take all the badges off, and show it to someone completely unfamiliar with Corvettes, no one would be able to see anything that would suggest the cars were of the same marque or that the 2005 had "decended" from the 1957.

    The Camaro had the same styling history. The original 67-69 model was replaced by the 70-81 which really had no styling cues, at all, that it shared with the earlier. The 82-96 shared little with earlier generations and the 97+ shared a little with the 82-96, but nothing, at all, with earlier models.

    The Camaro finally died. Although it was technically and performance-wise FAR superior to its chief competitor, the Mustang, the Mustang destroyed the Camaro sales-wise. And, it did this with an ancient chassis design and far less power. Why? I think that it was because a Mustang was always a Mustang. Any generation had a strong commonality with its forbearers. The Mustang "mystique" is kept alive through each generation, right up through the present. In fact, stunningly so in the present design. The Camaro, for all its performance, lost its connection to its predecessors and in doing so lost its "identity". That cost it its life.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not "down on Corvettes". It should be obvious how I feel about them. However, when I think about it in the context of the Mustang, it's really kind of a shame that the Corvette of today has no obvious (or, even, not-so-obvious) connection to its predecessors.

    But, I sure do like that Mustang. Plus, the DOHC engine (which will be returning in 4 valve version in the future) has just got to be one of the best looking engines ever installed in a passenger car (second only to the Boss 429 engine of the early 70s). No way near the performance of the GM Gen IV small block but definitely WAY better looking.

    I don't know, though. Trying to get used to Ford's part numbering system with all those letters and dashes interspersed with numbers would be tough for a guy like me. It's taken me 35+ years to learn about the GM system. I haven't got 35 more years to learn the Ford system.
    In Appreciation of John Hinckley
  • Tom R.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • June 30, 1993
    • 4081

    #2
    Re: Corvettes and Mustangs

    Joe:

    Of course the Corvette style engineers would rush to point out the style ques from past models that ties C5/C6 to its heritage such as the waterfall on convertibles, side coves, reminiscent of past generations, passenger support bar of pre-C3, flip-up headlamps (pre-C6), fenders that rise above hoodline, etc.

    Granted your point is "strong styling lines" in contrast to "ques" Interesting analysis though but agree 100$...never did like that Camaro beyond 70...wasn't sure if it was a firebird or something else.
    Tom Russo

    78 SA NCRS 5 Star Bowtie
    78 Pace Car L82 M21
    00 MY/TR/Conv

    Comment

    • Tom R.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • June 30, 1993
      • 4081

      #3
      Re: Corvettes and Mustangs

      Joe:

      Of course the Corvette style engineers would rush to point out the style ques from past models that ties C5/C6 to its heritage such as the waterfall on convertibles, side coves, reminiscent of past generations, passenger support bar of pre-C3, flip-up headlamps (pre-C6), fenders that rise above hoodline, etc.

      Granted your point is "strong styling lines" in contrast to "ques" Interesting analysis though but agree 100$...never did like that Camaro beyond 70...wasn't sure if it was a firebird or something else.
      Tom Russo

      78 SA NCRS 5 Star Bowtie
      78 Pace Car L82 M21
      00 MY/TR/Conv

      Comment

      • Mark #28455

        #4
        price killed the Camaro

        In order for a car line to survive, it takes 100,000+ buyers each year or more. The average minivan driver doesn't care about Ford vs. Chevy or Mustang vs. Camaro - they're not car LOVERS but DRIVERS. Plain and simple, the Mustang was a SPORTY car for $5000 to $10,000 less than the Camaro. Now look at the Corvette, priced at $40,000+. It has a niche market and most of the people on this website aren't in that niche. I hate to say it but Chevrolet prefers selling to that midlife crisis guy who will never race or abuse his car, and better still, buy it on a lease and get a new one in three years. Definitely not a car LOVER.

        The readers of this website buy 30+ year old cars and keep them forever - this doesn't bring in a dime of profit for GM so it's no surprise they don't care a lot about us. In addition, we constantly complain about stupid little details and drive the management crazy. That midlife crisis guy wants a totally different car every few years so the neighbors (who have no clue) can tell it's a new car and as long as it's flashy and new, he's happy. We better hope those guys keep buying Corvettes or the Corvette will go the way of the Camaro!

        Comment

        • Mark #28455

          #5
          price killed the Camaro

          In order for a car line to survive, it takes 100,000+ buyers each year or more. The average minivan driver doesn't care about Ford vs. Chevy or Mustang vs. Camaro - they're not car LOVERS but DRIVERS. Plain and simple, the Mustang was a SPORTY car for $5000 to $10,000 less than the Camaro. Now look at the Corvette, priced at $40,000+. It has a niche market and most of the people on this website aren't in that niche. I hate to say it but Chevrolet prefers selling to that midlife crisis guy who will never race or abuse his car, and better still, buy it on a lease and get a new one in three years. Definitely not a car LOVER.

          The readers of this website buy 30+ year old cars and keep them forever - this doesn't bring in a dime of profit for GM so it's no surprise they don't care a lot about us. In addition, we constantly complain about stupid little details and drive the management crazy. That midlife crisis guy wants a totally different car every few years so the neighbors (who have no clue) can tell it's a new car and as long as it's flashy and new, he's happy. We better hope those guys keep buying Corvettes or the Corvette will go the way of the Camaro!

          Comment

          • lyndon Sharpton

            #6
            Re: price killed the Camaro

            AMEN!

            Comment

            • lyndon Sharpton

              #7
              Re: price killed the Camaro

              AMEN!

              Comment

              • lyndon Sharpton

                #8
                Re: price killed the Camaro

                Some once said that they stoped making corvettes in 1972!

                Comment

                • lyndon Sharpton

                  #9
                  Re: price killed the Camaro

                  Some once said that they stoped making corvettes in 1972!

                  Comment

                  • Mark B.
                    Expired
                    • February 1, 2004
                    • 138

                    #10
                    Re: Corvettes and Mustangs

                    Joe, as an ex-Mustang hobbyist of 30 years, I too think the next generation Mustang is a winner! But, the Mustang also had its share of bumps in the road before becoming an American icon. The Mustang has many distinct styling iterations from 1964 to 1970, 1971 to 1973, 1974 to 1978(the non-Mustang), 1979 to 1986, 1987 to 1993, and 1994 to 2004. Let's not forget that the Mustang was almost axed in 1978 by the bean counters in Detroit. Were it not for a flood of mail to Dearborn, the Mustang would have gone the route of the Camaro. Much like the Corvette, with the C1's to C6's, the Mustang evolved to meet the market demands. It was reasonably cheap, easy to modify and repair, and had a plethora of aftermarket parts to afford personalization of your ride. Fortunately, for both the Mustang and the Vette, the original concept of each car, regardless of outward appearance, has stayed true to its roots. One, a sporty, economical Ponycar for the masses, and the other America's only 2-seat true sports car. Both marques have a cult following that won't let them die. The original Thunderbird died because the concept changed from 2-seat to 4-seat; the Camaro/Firebird died due to price and complexity.

                    I love the simplicity of my C1's because I can easily work on them. But, I also love the sophistication of the later models, especially the C6. It's progress, I suppose. I just hope GM never makes the Corvette a 4-seater.

                    Comment

                    • Mark B.
                      Expired
                      • February 1, 2004
                      • 138

                      #11
                      Re: Corvettes and Mustangs

                      Joe, as an ex-Mustang hobbyist of 30 years, I too think the next generation Mustang is a winner! But, the Mustang also had its share of bumps in the road before becoming an American icon. The Mustang has many distinct styling iterations from 1964 to 1970, 1971 to 1973, 1974 to 1978(the non-Mustang), 1979 to 1986, 1987 to 1993, and 1994 to 2004. Let's not forget that the Mustang was almost axed in 1978 by the bean counters in Detroit. Were it not for a flood of mail to Dearborn, the Mustang would have gone the route of the Camaro. Much like the Corvette, with the C1's to C6's, the Mustang evolved to meet the market demands. It was reasonably cheap, easy to modify and repair, and had a plethora of aftermarket parts to afford personalization of your ride. Fortunately, for both the Mustang and the Vette, the original concept of each car, regardless of outward appearance, has stayed true to its roots. One, a sporty, economical Ponycar for the masses, and the other America's only 2-seat true sports car. Both marques have a cult following that won't let them die. The original Thunderbird died because the concept changed from 2-seat to 4-seat; the Camaro/Firebird died due to price and complexity.

                      I love the simplicity of my C1's because I can easily work on them. But, I also love the sophistication of the later models, especially the C6. It's progress, I suppose. I just hope GM never makes the Corvette a 4-seater.

                      Comment

                      • Dick W.
                        Former NCRS Director Region IV
                        • June 30, 1985
                        • 10483

                        #12
                        Re: price killed the Camaro

                        That depends on who you talk to. Some say the real Corvettes have stove bolts in the valve covers and just 3 caps on the batteries, some say they have a divider in the rear window, some say all real ones have chrome bumpers, and I have said that it takes 7 bolts to hold the valve covers on a real one. Just who you talk to.
                        Dick Whittington

                        Comment

                        • Dick W.
                          Former NCRS Director Region IV
                          • June 30, 1985
                          • 10483

                          #13
                          Re: price killed the Camaro

                          That depends on who you talk to. Some say the real Corvettes have stove bolts in the valve covers and just 3 caps on the batteries, some say they have a divider in the rear window, some say all real ones have chrome bumpers, and I have said that it takes 7 bolts to hold the valve covers on a real one. Just who you talk to.
                          Dick Whittington

                          Comment

                          • Zachary K.
                            Very Frequent User
                            • March 1, 1986
                            • 162

                            #14
                            Re: price killed the Camaro

                            And many of the older generation, (me included) used to claim that the last Corvette was '62. Many of the younger generation might not realize that the '63 and up took many years to break into the NCRS orginization. And to prove this just look at the cover of the Driveline, note the solid axle still up in the top left hand corner.
                            1967 L79 Sunfire Yellow Black Leather Convertible- Duntov
                            1969 L71 LeMans Blue, Bright Blue Convertible
                            1970 L46 Monza Red, Light Saddle Convertible - Duntov
                            1976 L82 Classic White, Firethorn
                            2013 LS7 Black, Ebony, Convertible


                            Moved on -
                            2006 LS2 Black, Ebony, Convertible

                            Comment

                            • Zachary K.
                              Very Frequent User
                              • March 1, 1986
                              • 162

                              #15
                              Re: price killed the Camaro

                              And many of the older generation, (me included) used to claim that the last Corvette was '62. Many of the younger generation might not realize that the '63 and up took many years to break into the NCRS orginization. And to prove this just look at the cover of the Driveline, note the solid axle still up in the top left hand corner.
                              1967 L79 Sunfire Yellow Black Leather Convertible- Duntov
                              1969 L71 LeMans Blue, Bright Blue Convertible
                              1970 L46 Monza Red, Light Saddle Convertible - Duntov
                              1976 L82 Classic White, Firethorn
                              2013 LS7 Black, Ebony, Convertible


                              Moved on -
                              2006 LS2 Black, Ebony, Convertible

                              Comment

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