I recently purchased a 65 covette coupe. It was advertised and represented as a "numbers matching" car. I made the mistake of having a professional assessment rendered after I bought it. The block and transmission numbers match the title. However, the car has a poor quality, (wrong rivets red background) replacement ID tag and the frame is completely NON original- an amalgamation of frames from different years! Im not sure how to proceed and would welcome some advice on whether I should pursue the seller on grounds of misrepresentation. I bought the car for 26k and other than the frame and ID tag the car is in reasonable condition. It is a four speed and is silver black w after market side pipes. Given this information Im wondering if others are in agreement that this car was misrepresented?
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
you are not going to like this, but I will the first one to say it - why didn't you get the assessment before plunking down the money?
FYI - based on what you stated, "numbers matching" are exactly what it means - the VIN matches the title and is on the block and transmission - believe that is what you indicated the seller represented the car as!?Rick Aleshire
2016 Ebony C7R Z06 "ROSA" -
Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
Matching #s means every thing from phony restamps to real thing. I donot think you can hold seller responsible as this type of language is common even tho decieving. this is only my opinion tho. You sound like you are happy with car as a driver. You don't buy much for $26K. now. Good luck. DonComment
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
your description of the car doesn't appear to be mis-represented("numbers matching") . sounds like seller was more knowledgable than buyer. next time, get ncrs judge to inspect potential purchase BEFORE you buy. on the ohter hand, 26K for a "reasonable condition" midyear coupe. frame can be corrected, trim tag a definite hurrdle if your intent is to have it judged. good luck with the coupe. mikeComment
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
Where would the the VIN typically be stamped on the 65 Close Ratio 4-Spds?
Also where on the 69 M-21 4-spds?
Thanks.Comment
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
Ask 10 people the definition of the phrase 'matching numbers' and you'll probably get 11 different answers. Usually the definition used by the buyer and the one used by the seller are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.Comment
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
Corvette on the edge of the maincase, just in front of the bearing retainer plate. Pass car, almost anywhere, but the top of the case ears on the front is one favorite area.Bill Clupper #618Comment
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MATCHING NUMBERS Original
You fell into the typical trap. While that sounds bad, most first-time Corvette owners/buyers do also unless they do lots of homework first.
Matching Numbers does not mean Original. It means numbers match, and unless you specify which numbers, odds are you will not mean the same numbers as the seller.
There is a lot more to a car than numbers, as you found out. This is why it is important to check the whole car and not just a few buzzwords.
Of course, none of this is of comfort to you now.
What should be is that $26,000 for a '65 coupe in reasonable condition is a good deal. There are many "projects" (and I use that term broadly) on eBay that go for that much for a midyear. Some of those projects will see another $10,000 or more to ever run and possibly a year of work. And that won't mean they are nice, just running. If yours runs and looks good, then you are definitely ahead.
If your goal is to have it Flight judged, then buy the Judging Guide for 1965 and see what is right and wrong as far as NCRS is concerned. Then decide how much you want to spend to make those things right. It may not be worth the effort, or it may be easier than you think.
If your goal is to have a nice car to drive, then concentrate on driving it and doing the routine maintenance and fixes that are needed.
As they say on eBay, "ask questions BEFORE, not after you buy."Comment
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
Brad,
That replaccement ID tag would bother me more than a little. Have you verified that the car is not on a HOT SHEET?TerryComment
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Re: MATCHING NUMBERS
I agree with Terry......as far as the matching numbers go..if I was to rate Corvettes according to originality, I would of course give preference to all original cars..original engine-transmission etc. Secondly, the next in order of originality would go to a matching numbers Corvette...which if a owner lost his engine/any component to mechanical failure or accident he or she replaced it with the same numbered part as the original version ...this type of restoration costs more than buying just any motor (for example) and just installing it into the car. This type of work such as throwing a 350 ci engine in a 1966 Vette would in my opinion (and it is subjective) make the car less valueable (from a originality standpoint)then the second option would and creates another classification not just for Corvettes but any collectable automobile. Then there are custom restorations out there that can bring very high prices although the finished project falls far from any original factory configurations.Comment
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The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
Dropping that 350 in a car is rebuilding, not restoring. Painting it nice in BC/CC, dropping in a crate engine, and adding a few modern touches is rebuilding, not restoring.
Too many say they are restoring, when they are really rebuilding. Restoring is a buzzword, and totally meaningless in today's car sales market.
matching numbers Corvette...which if a owner lost his engine/any component to mechanical failure or accident he or she replaced it with the same numbered part as the original version
The exception here is the CE engine done on warranty. Restore means to take to a previous condition, although we tend to look at that as the first day out of the factory door. But in fact, many cars are restored to a previous condition, such as race cars, engineering cars, show cars, and so on. I see the Corvette restored and retaining its CE block more valuable than one someone dropped in a dated block according to the "rules" because the CE is part of that car's Chevrolet history. The owner didn't do it, Chevrolet did it.
And not a Chevrolet dealer, but Chevrolet, because the engine had to be approved by Zone management (Chevrolet) before it was done, unlike taking the car into the dealer for a new water pump or alternator or such.Comment
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
The term "matching numbers" entered our collector dictionary many years ago. long before NCRS. It orginially was used to identify a vehicle that had an identification plate (prior to the term VIN) that matched the title for the car. As years passed, and the collector car hobby grew, the term "matching numbers" took on a new identity. To many buyers, unfortunately, it means every part # that is on the car is correct. This rarely exists. To many sellers, it means that the VIN on the engine (restamp or not) matched the VIN plate, and nothing more.
Having said that, expectations should relate to $$$. Unfortunately in your case, it sounds like your expectations might have been set a little too high.
I doubt you would have any legal recourse, since the car meets the strict definition of "matching numbers".Comment
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
A "CE" code replacement short block does not necessarily mean the engine was replaced by GM/Chevrolet under warranty. At some point in aprox 1969-70, ALL service and over the counter short blocks had the CE stamp so an owner could have purchased and installed it himself.
The fact that "CE" didn't begin until about 1969 means that there's no such thing as a correct "CE" replacement engine for any Corvette until 1969 as any replacement for an earlier car would then have an incorrect casting number. There was no such thing, for example, as a "CE" block for a 66 with the correct 3869942 casting number, or a 67 with the 351 casting number etc.
Just my opinion but I feel there is no difference between a "CE" block and a totally incorrect block with no numbers at all, or totally incorrect numbers. The "CE" in no way connects the block to the car. It could have come out of any car or found at a swap meet.Comment
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
------As usual, Mike, You are correct, but how about a 1969 with a CE block and paperwork from the dealer that proves a warrantee claim??? Have seen this at least once, and thought it was pretty cool..........Bill SComment
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
Bill,
Just about the time I hit "post message", it occured to me that there probably were documented cases of "during the model year" warranty engine/block replacements that could actually have correct casting numbers and it's even possible to have a casting date prior to the car build date. If there were paperwork with it, I suppose it would be more acceptable.
I know this was a VERY common occurance in the 60's as many new cars, especially big block cars, never made it past the first month of life with the original block, and all were warranty replaced. (even the ones that showed up at the dealer on Monday AM with connecting rods hanging out of the engine and "drag strip numbers" still on the windows)
That 5/50 GM warranty was great!Comment
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