Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
Doesn't this fall into the term "Restification"
Doesn't this fall into the term "Restification"
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
Actually, any car with a 5/50,000 warranty running through this time could have a CE installed under warranty, not just '69 and up.
I never said they would be correct, but I find them more desirable in one way over the replacement dated block.
The two places I find the dated replacement block in an advantage is anything to do with NCRS and in selling to someone where you use NCRS terminology.
I DO NOT suggest NCRS change rules to accept them. Basically, the CE has nothing to do with NCRS. In a way, they are like race cars, in that they have their own value and NCRS rules completely eliminate them.
However, here are reasons I find a CE engine advantagous:
1. Most sources refer to these as warranty and some service items, not over-the-counter blocks. I think you have confused the warranty replacement and the engine the dealer orders to repair a car with the special order engines people bought to drop in race cars, street rods, and such. Several people I know of who bought over-the-counter engines had standard engine code suffixes on theirs. Naturally, there were no VIN stampings as they were never installed in a car. This was about the only way to get an LT1 or a 302, as they were not common in junkyards, these were not ones pulled from cars.
2. While the thought of someone buying a CE and installing in the typical Corvette was possible, practical thinking suggests otherwise. At a time when the average salary was in the $150 a week range (or less) how many people bought a $400 short block from Chevy when they could buy a full engine for $100 or less at Joe's Used Auto Parts?
3. Cars who have a history of the CE engine actually being in the car in the early '70s are apt to have it really installed under warranty. NO ONE would have gone out to install one to "pass judging" as judging frankly didn't exist and no one cared about restoration then.
4. Like the original engines when found back in the '70s, the CE is an indicator no one screwed with the car, IF the history of the CE to that time can be documented. While the value of an original engine is very distorted today, the true value of it then was that the car wasn't screwed with. It was probably a good car and one cared for, not raced from every stop light in town. The same with the CE.
I know, today no one remembers this. They think "original block" is magic or something, that the engine runs better or whatever.
I find this desirability only under the following conditons:
- The car is in basically stock to original condition except for the engine block (not restored condition or a customized car).
- The car has a known history that says the CE was in it since the '60s or '70s.
- The car has a known history that says the car was never messed with except where the dealer replaced the engine.
- There is paper on the replacement if the history is not known.
I find this desirability does not hold for the following conditions:
- any car restored with a CE installed trying to claim warranty value
- any car with no known history reching back to that period (trace only to '95, for example)
- any car where the CE is there but nothing else matches up (car customized, hot rodded, etc.)
These two sets of conditions is something most Corvette people fail to consider anymore - the overall condition and aspect of the car.
It boils down to which would you rather have - the car that the old guy down the street bought in 1967, warrantied the block in '69, and kept otherwise original up to today when he is selling it, or the car built from pieces to match the JG that may have well have been nothing more than like the one in the picture two years ago. BTW, the one in the picture is a "numbers matching" engine. In two years, this one may be passed off as "all original" and someone paying a lot for it.
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
No, because restification is a term invented by the hot rod industry for cars that are rebuilt to look almost like then did back when new but customized in the suspension, drivetrain, or interior to update to modern materials or technology.
And, most importantly, to cash in on the restoration craze as "customized" had become a bad word.Comment
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Re: The problem is rebuilding vs restoration
The only engines that ever had a build date and suffix code stamped on the pad were complete service engine assy's. (rare) Partial (short block) engines had only the CE info. (69 and later) There was no such thing as a different short block for warranty than for service. They were all the same. I've read and heard in the past that there was a special part number for service and another for warranty but this is absolutely not true. There was no such thing. Just the bookkeeping alone for the 2nd part number would have been incredibly difficult and expensive for GM, not to mention the matter of storing not one, but two of every short block in warehouses across the country. There's no logical reason why GM would have ever done this and several reasons why they wouldn't have.
I think the issue of weather or not an incorrect casting number CE block is better than a replacement correct casting number block, even without numbers, is pointless. They're both incorrect. The debate would be about which is less incorrect.
As Bill Stephenson mentioned in an earlier post, if a car has a correct casting number CE replacement block with paperwork to prove it was dealer installed under warranty, the entire matter has a slightly different meaning but it still doesn't mean much to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, most buyers/owners want the original blocks, even if they have to manufacture them.Comment
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And the poor guy wayyyyyyyy up top who
started this thread thought it was a simple cut and dried question!Comment
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He has already bailed.
I went back up top to see his profile in case he says where he lives, but there is no profile.
I really wish people would follow up on advice as to what they do and don't do. I mean it is too much to expect a report a week or month later, but very few even bother to say thanks to anyone here.
On other locations, it bothered me enough that I just quit, as many asked for advice, but really wanted you to tell them what they wanted to hear, not real advice. You know the type of advice.
"Yes, buy that '77 Corvette with the 307 engine that needs rebuilt and the bad paint because $3000 is a really cheap price for a Corvette."
"Yes, you should buy that '65 Corvette coupe that needs restoration and do it yourself even though you have never even changed your own oil."Comment
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CE block, what do I have?
I bought my 69 300/350 in '73 from the first real owner. The dealer had it for awhile. He said the engine was replaced under warrenty. OK, but what's the story here. I'll have to look up the numbers, but it is a 4 bolt block, the heads have different casting numbers from each other, and it had a 327 crank w/350 pistions. In 1980, instead of rebuilding it, I replaced it because it was cheaper than boring etc. I have all the parts still in the garage. IF it was replaced, or maybe rebuilt, by Chevy, why the odd ball parts?
KenComment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
Ken,
We would need casting numbers and a bit more info to ID the block but I Have to ask why you think it has 350 pistons with a 327 crankshaft? Although it is physically possible to mate the two, it's HIGHLY unlikely that this is the combination. I'm not exactly sure what the compression ratio would be but it would most likely be so low that the engine would never start. It's easy to tell though. If the pistons never actually reach near TDC and miss by about .135", (large 1/8") it is indeed as you said, 350 C/S and 327 pistons.
If the engine was replaced because of a failure that damaged one cyl head, that may explain the odd 2nd casting number. Could be a number from a time a few years later than 1969.
MichaelComment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
My '69 Z/28 (Feb. build) has a "CE" block (3970010) cast in May '70 and bolted in the car by the dealer in June, '70, with one original Feb. '69 186 head and one May '70 186 head (with factory screw-in studs and guide plates which started in '70) that was ordered separately along with the "CE" block - when it blew, it must have gone out in a blaze of glory and took one head with it. All the other bolt-on pieces (intake, distributor, alternator, A.I.R. pump, etc.) are the original February '69 parts. The original block would have been either a 3956618 or a 3932388.Comment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
Michael
OK, here are my #'s
Block: casting #3956618, date C-7-8, stamp pad A42565. The last 2 #'s do not line up with the rest, obviously hand stamped. Those are the only #'s on the pad.
Heads: 3927186, date K-29-8 (dbl hump); 3947041, date K-9-8 (triangle)
VIN #711214.
This is the first time I have ever really looked at the numbers. It appears that they are all good numbers, just miss-matched. I don't know what the stamping means. And I don't know why they put in the 327 pistons, but that's what the machine shop said and they showed me how far down the ring groove was in comparison with other 350's. And yes, it was rather gutless, but I didn't realize that until I put in the new engine.
KenComment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
Interesting that someone intentionally installed 327 pistons with a 350 crankshaft. That extra 1/8" of piston to deck clearance had to really kill the power. If flat top pistons, it probably would have been about 7-1 comp ratio.
The casting number sounds like something from mid 1968 but it would be best to wait to hear from some of the C3 guys because I'm not the expert on these.
Sounds like one cyl head was original but the other would be a small valve lo perf head.Comment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
John,
Sounds like the typical warranty engine from the 60's/early 70's. Seemed like there was always one cyl head that was lost in a major engine failure.
The worst engine destruction I ever caused was also in a Z28 Camaro. Lost 6 of the 8 connecting rods and both cyl heads. Nothing left but the intake manifold, a few valves and the water pump. Good thing it was still in warranty.Comment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
No way! Install a 327 piston with a 350 crank and it will stick out of the hole about an 1/8th inch. Of course, there is a head there in the way.
The the piston for the shorter stroke has the pin lower, so the top of the piston is further up and near the deck of the block.
When we destroked a 307 once, we used 283 pistons and cut the tops to bring them to near zero on the deck.
This is one reason you used to see a lot of people boring engines but not stroking them, is that you get custom strokes, you need custom pin heights in your pistons.
The except today of course is all the 383 setups. The reason they are affordable is that there are so many, the 383 pistons are produced in enough quantity to not cost much different than standard storke pistons in standard overbores.Comment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
it had a 327 crank w/350 pistions
This will work, but not well, and this is definitely bubba.Comment
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Re: CE block, what do I have?
It's the other way around Mike. The engine has a 327 c/shaft with 350 pistons. The pistons would be roughly 1/8" down in the hole at TDC.Comment
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