63/64 Judging Guide

[Harry Sadlock]

Over the past few years there have been many items in the JG argued as incorrect/wrong. Over the past 6 to 12 months, I believe, several submissions have been made to the National Chairman and the 63/64 team leader.

Since a new version of the JG, with the revisions, has not been made available. I request that the changes to the 63/64 JG be made available on the NCRS WEB site as a PDF file for 63/64 owners to download.

If no changes have been accepted I want to know why!

Harry

[Jack H.]

Re: 63/64 Judging Guide

Since the maintenance of the JG books are the responsibility of the NTL who serves in office appointed by the National Judging Chairman, I don't think there's any way you'll get the answer to your question (why hasn't the '63-64 JG been revised) on this board UNLESS the NTL or National Judging Chairman make post(s)...

Typically, revised JG books aren't phased into the system until AFTER a National Convention so as NOT to be a 'surprise' to those pursuing top awards when they bring their cars to a National meet.

Also, the NTL and his staff consider/weigh changes proposed and they decide if there's merit for change (one at a time), and when the change(s) should be adopted.

Note, I'm not defending this particular situation ('63-64 JG book revision status), I'm simply explaining the existing system.

[Bernard M.]

Re: 63/64 Judging Guide

A new (4th?) edition has been available since (I believe) about January '06.

[Philip C.]

It has the same missssssstakes *NM*

[Michael H.]

Re: 63/64 Judging Guide

All,

This may not be the proper place for this, and I suppose it may ruffle a few feathers, but I've gotten to the point with the 63-64 JG that I really don't care, even if asked not to return to this discussion board. In my opinion, that manual is one of the worst things that has happened to the judging and restoration/preservation of these cars in decades. What makes matters much worse is the fact that the person in charge of making the needed correction has, obviously, no intention in doing so. The last "new and improved" edition was no different than the one it replaced and included every one of the mistakes from the previous edition.

We've all been here before and we were told that these corrections take time and research. How much time could it possibly take to learn that all 63-65 front license plate brackets are the same? There wasn't a 66-67 style bracket used on 63 as the manusl states. This is such elementary information, I'm surprised it's been in these manuals for as many years as it has, but I won't be surprised to see it in some new edition soon to be released.

We were also told that the discussion board was not the place to try to suggest revisions to the manual because the team leader was not required to participate in these discussions. Because of that, a survey on early/late 63 hardtops was conducted. The results concluded, without doubt, that the manual was incorrect. These results were sent to Carlton, the 63-64 team leader. His reply stated that he would "look into the matter" and make a decision. One was eventually made, I guess. No change for the manual on this issue. I believe the only people that actually believe an early notched h-top is correct on a late 63/early 64 are Carlton and some of the people that have already spent a few thousand dollars buying/restoring an incorrect top for their car.

What makes matters worse is the fact that many, or probably most, restorers and members that are restoring their cars would rather go along with the incorrect items in the manual and get their Top Flight, than take a stand and try to get corrections made. I can't say that I blame these people, in a way, knowing the past success rate on making changes in the manual. However, this is completely unfair to others that want to know what is really correct, not just what it takes to get a Top Flight. That's what this organization was all about when I joined in the late 70's. I would like to think that that's what it's all about today but I've learned that this just isn't the case.

In my opinion, the majority of the information that's in the JG comes from one person, one car. I've been told that this was absolutely not the case but I have to disagree. I can't believe that a huge number of cars all have exactly the same incorrect item or method of assembly. I think we all well know that the info in the JG has to be a result of research from a large number of examples. The person responsible for gathering this information has to have a high level of "real life experience" with these cars to sort through all the info and form an opinion on what's right and what's not.

I admit, there will never be a perfect judging guide but I have absolutely no doubt that tremendous improvement is needed for the current one. I certainly don't know everything but I've been around these cars for while now so I think I am at least a little more knowledgeable than my garden plants. There are a lot of very knowledgeable 63-64 people out there and, combined, they would make up an group that would be at the top of the field. However, if this vast amount of knowledge can not be passed along to the person that is responsible for the info in the JG, all that knowledge is wasted. I suppose that's why I, and a lot of other folks, try to get involved in the discussion board. We sometimes advise that something be restored in a way that doesn't conform to the manual because we know that the manual has it wrong. I dislike speaking negatively about the manual on the board but not as much as I would dislike recommending the restoration of a part be done incorrectly, just to conform to the manual.

I think most everyone knows I have no ulterior motives, no reason to want change, as I have absolutely no intention in showing any of my cars, and I'm NOT at all interested in a position in NCRS. My love for the car drives me. Nothing else.

I can only suggest that owners try to contact someone in NCRS that is willing to get involved in this. If nothing is done, nothing will change. I will be happy to assist in any way I can, if indeed I'm still allowed here on this board.

Michael

[Robert Jorjorian]

Carlton PLEASE read the above post *NM*

[Rick A.]

Re: 63/64 Judging Guide

Michael,

THANK YOU for saying what many probably wanted to say! How many times have we talked about the 1963 water pump, as another example that Carlton said would be fixed!@?

[Dennis C.]

Amen, & I hope Roy S. too... DC *NM*

[Tracy C.]

Re: 63/64 Judging Guide

Jack,

Thanks for your insight.

I struggle with the perception that "only" the 63/4 JG has errors. Could it be that all have similar issues? If not..why not? Can someone spotlight historical revision history of JGs for other years and explain why they keep current with accepted standards?

Because this effort is completely voluntary, we knows the wheels move slow. How can smucks like me help out?

I'd like to see a version of the JG complete with detail close up photographs that depict say.. the difference between 63 thick rimmed early style hubcaps and the later thinner style. Or maybe the correct marbled finish for finned valve covers. Or even the correct style of seat belt webbing. etc. etc.

Yea, I know this would be a HUGE undertaking. But we all could do "something" to help provide pictures or edit copy for at least an area or two.

The NCRS is the leading edge in this hobby. It's time to get off the dime and lead.

How can I help?
tc

[Collin MacDonald]

Is there a place one can find the correct items?

Many of you know the mistakes, I for one depend upon the JG for direction on restoring my 63. Is there one depository I can go to see what is correct. I recently was judged and felt it was fair, but also felt some things I was judged on was not entirely correct...PLEASE HELP ME or US who are trying to do the right thing....

[Jim L.]

I'll share info if you will

Michael,

why don't we use this site to share those corrections we know are in need of repair. i posted two pictures of the 63 gas cap and i challenge you to apply what you see in the pictures to the JG. check your gas cap to see if it is as stated in the JG. my 63 is in the early version, but you try and find the second type, not many around. there are plenty of the first type per the JG all the way to 65 as i know it!!!!! i was not able to get this item changed in the JG and i have plenty of other examples if you are willing to share those kind of things with rest of us out here. FWIW, everyone else should add to this to anotate their current JG to read and guide you correctly. one last thought that was brought to my attention, that is, never tell all for now you know how to make a BOWTIE car!!!!!

Jim

http://www.freewebs.com/jimlennartz/63gascap.htm

[Peter L.]

Re: Amen, & I hope Roy S. too... DC

Dennis - Now I'm from a place that knows about BBs (that's big bombs not BIG BLOCKs) and aside of the Judging folks and the Team Leaders, folks like Gilbert and the Board need to understand and share the concern members have for improving the TIG&JMs. Whether this is the place or not, it's one of the venues and opportunities we NCRSers have to make a positive contribution to our organization and making our TIM&JGs the best. Enough said. Pete

[Roy B.]

Re: 63/64 Judging Guide "michael"

I feel your pain , when I first got in to NCRS #182 which goes back a few years I argued that same point "years"about having to take a real original parts off a Corvette to meet the JM and was told don't worry it will change! Yes you guessed it some has! I've judged 53 to 57 to many times and now I just mention to owners what is and isn't correct in the JM, what to remove that is original to meet the JM or to find the original parts no matter what the JM may say because some day the JM may catch up to it. Many know the 55 is my thing so I just keep the original parts on the 55 and just take the hits, was the same with the 57 I had or my 67 which will never be shown.
I think your statment was FAIR and dont think it will be deleted.

[mike cobine]

Re: I'll share info if you will - here's a URL

This was started a few months ago in response to the lack of response higher up.




1963 and 1964 Technical Manual and Judging Guide

[Roy S.]