Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

[Russ U.]

I am a relative newcomer to the Corvette hobby and NCRS judging. I am doing a lot of homework trying to figure out how cars looked originally. I study all of the books, judging manuals, pictures of survivor cars, etc. I also pay very close attention to the posts to this board by the more seasoned members regarding original versus reproduction parts. I really appreciate the efforts of Roy and others who are trying to pass on knowledge to rookies like me.

But it is darn hard trying to sort some of this out, especially the original versus reproduction part issue.

Why are there not more pictures of original parts in the Judging Manuals?

Right now, NCRS is relying on word of mouth to pass on knowledge from the generation that has first hand experience with these cars to the next generation that doesn't have first hand knowledge. Word of mouth is a very ineffective way to pass on this type of knowledge, however. At some point in the future, a C1 restored with reproduction parts will be what everybody thinks a car should look like.

I for one would really like to see a concerted effort to update the C1 Judging Manuals by including a lot more pictures of original parts. This update needs to happen before too long, so that the guys who really know what original parts look like can guide the process. With the advent of digital pictures, this process has become much easier and quicker to accomplish.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

Russ

[Dennis C.]

I think you ought to jump right on the project... *NM*

[Dennis C.]

I think you ought to jump right on the project... *NM*

[Joe L.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Russ-----

There are really very few, if any, pictures in any of the NCRS Judging Guides. It would be a HUGE benefit to all to have pictures included as you described. However, it would also be a HUGE and COSTLY effort to do so. In fact, it would probably represent an expansion of effort by several orders of magnitude. NCRS being primarily a voluntary organization pretty much precludes this kind of expansion. However, it's a very worthy goal and maybe someday we'll "get there".

[Joe L.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Russ-----

There are really very few, if any, pictures in any of the NCRS Judging Guides. It would be a HUGE benefit to all to have pictures included as you described. However, it would also be a HUGE and COSTLY effort to do so. In fact, it would probably represent an expansion of effort by several orders of magnitude. NCRS being primarily a voluntary organization pretty much precludes this kind of expansion. However, it's a very worthy goal and maybe someday we'll "get there".

[Rob M.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

I do have appr. a thousand pictures of '59 details to donate...

greetings,
Rob.

[Rob M.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

I do have appr. a thousand pictures of '59 details to donate...

greetings,
Rob.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Russ,

This isn't new idea, but is one that is in the works I'm told. I suggested the same and volunteered my assistance to the team leader for the forth coming 63/4 JG revision. I included pics along with my humble offerings when I sent my package to him as well.

I'm convinced that we have enough "digital" people willing to help that this could be pulled off very smoothly. It would add quite a few pages to the JG which would add to the cost of printing. I'm very confident that an increase to the purchase price would be tolerated due to the added value of good quality photographs.

tc

[Tracy C.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Russ,

This isn't new idea, but is one that is in the works I'm told. I suggested the same and volunteered my assistance to the team leader for the forth coming 63/4 JG revision. I included pics along with my humble offerings when I sent my package to him as well.

I'm convinced that we have enough "digital" people willing to help that this could be pulled off very smoothly. It would add quite a few pages to the JG which would add to the cost of printing. I'm very confident that an increase to the purchase price would be tolerated due to the added value of good quality photographs.

tc

[Gary Bishop]

Could be a separate manual. *NM*

[Gary Bishop]

Could be a separate manual. *NM*

[Chuck S.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Russ, your frustration has been felt by everyone that ever got into this hobby late; i.e. those that didn't literally grow up being immersed in the details like a few here. The key is to pursue knowledge at every opportunity, and don't become impatient at not becoming an expert overnight.

Frankly, use of the TIM&JG references as the fundamental method of learning about Corvettes would be at best a vain effort, impractical and beyond unwieldy...a authoring, editing, and publishing nightmare from hell. If you have heard us complain about the minor errors in the manuals before now, you should figure the din from trying to cover and document all the running changes for every model year would be unbearable...that's what would be required for the omnibus TIM&JG.

I have always maintained that the cars are the best reference for originality. However, the older the car, and the more it has been modded and customized, the harder it is for the novice to figure out how "original" appears. Your choice of the C1 year class probably puts you at the worst disadvantage for determining originality because of the time factor, but that can be overcome.

For any year class, it always a good idea to be skeptical and double-check what you see on the car against other sources such as: Talk to experienced C1 owners and judges (Suck up, make friends, and be a pest until they accept you. ); Observe known orignal cars closely (Bowtie cars on display at meets); Research the history of GM replacement parts (Get a GM parts book comtemporary to your car.); Read/memorize vendor catalogs to determine all the parts available (Some vendors will tell you if a part is NOS or a functional replacement...others will lie or ignorantly tell you it's NOS when it's not.)

Get involved in the judging process and see the range of possibilities as you judge. As you advance from observer judge to judge, you will hear and write down the comments/evaluations of senior-level experienced judges. If you are unable to judge, attend judging schools and seminars offered at chapter, regional, and national meets. Shoot the breeze with the C1 crowd during the hospitality hour the evening before every meet starts. If you want to become an expert...GET INVOLVED in NCRS!

There is no curriculum that you can study and receive a BS degree in Classic Corvettes in four years. If you could do that, we old geezers wouldn't have anything to do with our time after that; this way, we can compare notes and argue about how it's supposed to be until Gabriel blows his horn.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Russ, your frustration has been felt by everyone that ever got into this hobby late; i.e. those that didn't literally grow up being immersed in the details like a few here. The key is to pursue knowledge at every opportunity, and don't become impatient at not becoming an expert overnight.

Frankly, use of the TIM&JG references as the fundamental method of learning about Corvettes would be at best a vain effort, impractical and beyond unwieldy...a authoring, editing, and publishing nightmare from hell. If you have heard us complain about the minor errors in the manuals before now, you should figure the din from trying to cover and document all the running changes for every model year would be unbearable...that's what would be required for the omnibus TIM&JG.

I have always maintained that the cars are the best reference for originality. However, the older the car, and the more it has been modded and customized, the harder it is for the novice to figure out how "original" appears. Your choice of the C1 year class probably puts you at the worst disadvantage for determining originality because of the time factor, but that can be overcome.

For any year class, it always a good idea to be skeptical and double-check what you see on the car against other sources such as: Talk to experienced C1 owners and judges (Suck up, make friends, and be a pest until they accept you. ); Observe known orignal cars closely (Bowtie cars on display at meets); Research the history of GM replacement parts (Get a GM parts book comtemporary to your car.); Read/memorize vendor catalogs to determine all the parts available (Some vendors will tell you if a part is NOS or a functional replacement...others will lie or ignorantly tell you it's NOS when it's not.)

Get involved in the judging process and see the range of possibilities as you judge. As you advance from observer judge to judge, you will hear and write down the comments/evaluations of senior-level experienced judges. If you are unable to judge, attend judging schools and seminars offered at chapter, regional, and national meets. Shoot the breeze with the C1 crowd during the hospitality hour the evening before every meet starts. If you want to become an expert...GET INVOLVED in NCRS!

There is no curriculum that you can study and receive a BS degree in Classic Corvettes in four years. If you could do that, we old geezers wouldn't have anything to do with our time after that; this way, we can compare notes and argue about how it's supposed to be until Gabriel blows his horn.

[Russ U.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Joe-

Thanks for your response.

I agree this would be a big effort. But I think the effort might be doable, even for a group of volunteers. As Rob and Tracey's posts indicate, there are a number of us who have built up digital libraries of pictures of our favorite cars. I probably have digital pics of almost every meaningful part for a 54, for example. Thus, I suspect that the pics needed for this effort are already out there, and can be accumulated very readily.

In addition, the text is already pretty much written - the current judging manuals. That makes the job ALOT easier.

Adding the pictures to the text, and then editing the new Manual, will be a major effort. But still doable. Adding the pics to the text is easier than you might think, but requires somebody who really knows the car and is good with technology (photoshop, ms word, adobe acrobat,etc). Editing the effort will be the hard part, I suspect. Some or all of the editors may not feel comfortable working with a digital document. Would have to figure out how to deal with that when the time comes. But I think this is still very doable for a volunteer organization. I think doing this draft would be easier than doing the original text drafting, for sake of comparison.

The cost issue is interesting. The JM's could balloon up to 200 - 300 pages, depending on the number and size of the pictures. And you would want to print the JMs in color on quality paper. You are right - this could get real costly.

Or you could just publish the expanded JMs in PDF form, and put them on the net. This is a zero cost option. Members could either download them off the net or purchase a CD for a nominal charge.

I personally would like to see both options offered - a hardcopy and an electronic copy. Maybe you continue to offer a text only version as well (for members who are uncomfortable with a computer and don't need an expensive hardcopy).

[Russ U.]

Re: Why So Few Pics in the C1 Judging Manuals???

Joe-

Thanks for your response.

I agree this would be a big effort. But I think the effort might be doable, even for a group of volunteers. As Rob and Tracey's posts indicate, there are a number of us who have built up digital libraries of pictures of our favorite cars. I probably have digital pics of almost every meaningful part for a 54, for example. Thus, I suspect that the pics needed for this effort are already out there, and can be accumulated very readily.

In addition, the text is already pretty much written - the current judging manuals. That makes the job ALOT easier.

Adding the pictures to the text, and then editing the new Manual, will be a major effort. But still doable. Adding the pics to the text is easier than you might think, but requires somebody who really knows the car and is good with technology (photoshop, ms word, adobe acrobat,etc). Editing the effort will be the hard part, I suspect. Some or all of the editors may not feel comfortable working with a digital document. Would have to figure out how to deal with that when the time comes. But I think this is still very doable for a volunteer organization. I think doing this draft would be easier than doing the original text drafting, for sake of comparison.

The cost issue is interesting. The JM's could balloon up to 200 - 300 pages, depending on the number and size of the pictures. And you would want to print the JMs in color on quality paper. You are right - this could get real costly.

Or you could just publish the expanded JMs in PDF form, and put them on the net. This is a zero cost option. Members could either download them off the net or purchase a CD for a nominal charge.

I personally would like to see both options offered - a hardcopy and an electronic copy. Maybe you continue to offer a text only version as well (for members who are uncomfortable with a computer and don't need an expensive hardcopy).