Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

[Everett Ogilvie]

Just for fun:

Interesting thread way down there on lacquer. Many parts of the thread mention making your non-lacquer paint LOOK like lacquer to get through the judging process. How is that any different than making your stamp pad LOOK like original broach marks and correct stamping, to get through the judging process?

Is either case any different? Both seem to be to get "the look". Neither are original, both are restored areas. Is the engine any more significant than a whole paint job?

I admit it- I like stirring the pot. Now, have at it...

[Robert C.]

Re: Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

No Everitt, the judges look at both just the same. Evidently some people have the idea that if you restamp a block that somehow that's cheating. NOT SO! This year, again Roy Sinor clarified that if the block looks factory,restamp or not, that there will be NO DEDUCTIONS.Same with the paint!!!!


NCRS-Texas Chapter

[David K.]

Re: Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

I think I like the way you think. But, in my opinon we have to question if we are after a restoration or a very good looking and functional car.It seems to me that many people have lost the true meaning of what restoration means. Which means to bring back to it's original state.Who hasn't read an ad which says restored. When you talk to the seller you find out that he just painted his '62 a beautiful '73 elkhart green! Hardly my meaning of restored! If you like other types of paint finish, go for it. Please don't call it restored! Now if you think I can't admire a car like that, I sure can. I just think we have to remember the difference. Now I have done it! I stated my opinon. Ok you dogs, tear me up!

[Patrick T.]

What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

Pardon my ignorance, but what do broach marks look like? Also, how did the stamp pads appear before they were stamped at Flint? Was the VIN number added at St.Louis or back at Flint? One more, what does a GOOD restamp look like and how can you still spot it, circular grooves on the pad?

There is nothing phony about my #'s, but sure would like to know the above. Thanks, Patrick #33001

[Jerry Clark]

Re: What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

Hi Patrick:

If I may be the Devils advocate for a minute and I do mean this with all due respect and in the interest of enlightenment. If you don't know what a restamps characteristics are, how are you so certain yours are original, are you the original owner? Just curious regarding the circumstances.

jer

[Patrick H.]

Re: Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

Everett,

Personally, I think that a lot of the hype regarding restamps is because it can affect the value of the car so much. If a "perfect" restamp and switch, where a 427/435 is dropped in place of a 327/300, the value of the car "doubles" for certain years. If the one who installs the restamp has it judged and it passes as correct, and later sells as such, it is fraud. Even if a 435 replaces a 435 but is sold as the "original" ingine, there is not 100% honesty involved.

Say there is honesty involved, and the seller admits it is a restamp. Isn't there still some doubt that a 435 vs 300 switch was done???

On the other hand, if the paint is of modern day chemistry, whether base/clear or other, but passes as correct, it may not affect the value much at all and may even enhance it. As well, paint jobs in general do not last as long as engines, and will likely need to be redone in the future, where the new owner will now have the choice himself of what to use. Of course by then there won't be lacquer.

Just a few of my thoughts on the almighty engine stamp. Thankfully mine is still original...

Patrick Hulst

[Jerry Clark]

Re: Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

Hi David:

I will go out on my usual tree limb here and say that I think there is only one method of restoring a car and that is to return all of its original components to as new condition. It is a matter of semantics , if the paint is resprayed, regardless of material used it hasn't been restored it has been redone, refurbished, pick a term but it is not original. Original and restored can not be synonymous, it is one or the other.

I am not a restorer, the simple thought of attempting to fulfill my own definition of restored seem so insurmountable that I no longer consider it possible for ME.

I know our friend Joe Lucia has every ORIGINAL part that came on his 69 and has the capacity to restore his car in the very essence of the term, but he is in the vast minority, but then again he doesn't have the original paint.

jer

[Dale Pearman]

Re: What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

Broach marks are a figment of the inagination. The manifestation of a car club gone wild! When you restamp a pad usually the old numbers are removed with a belt sander (by the way it is illegal in most states to REMOVE these numbers). The belt sander leaves a bunch of scratches in the pad that are parallel to the crankshaft if the sander is held right. Sometime in the past a bunch of engines appeared that had the numbers stamped on top of these scratches. Viola! Broach marks. With the passage of time our "MASTER JUDGES" have come to beleive that these scratches are original. NOT SO

A broach is a machine that operates in holes, like for instance if you want to broach valve guide holes in heads. It acts like a tap and cuts grooves into the sides of the holes (walls) Then the result is reamed to dimension for the valves. Can anyone tell me how a broach can possibly be used to deck a block?

Circular mills are used today and they leave circular tooling marks on the pad. This marking is a dead give-away to restamping. I haven't seen linear mills in ages. They are old fashoned. At flint the production mill resembled a carpenter's plane with a super hardened blade actuated by heavy duty hydraulics. If the blade of this mill was relatively new, a clean shave was the result. As tiny imperfections developed on the edge, one, two or more lines (scratches) would appear parallel to the crankshaft. BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT OF A BELT SANDER. I'm talking about naked eye observations. If you greatly magnify the pad you will see very subtile lines from the blade but it takes a LOT of magnification to see this. The pad should be smooth, clean, and without tooling marks.

What has become the rage in NCRS pad judging is to look for belt sander scratches and when found proclaim originality of a restamped block. Conversely, when the absence of the belt sander marks is observed, an original block is proclaimed RESTAMP. You figure it out. There's a lot of good judges in NCRS who can competently judge engines but they don't like to tell you how. Also, there's a lot of black hat experts who just don't know any better. Maybe I'm one of them but at least I run my mouth till somebody teaches me better. How else you gonna learn?

I've judged a lot of blocks in the past 16 years and I've seen a lot of unmolested originals. I'm no expert but I think I know how to spot an original vs a restamp. And by the way there's NOTHING wrong with a restamp. It should just be done right so it appears as original.

Hope this helps,

Varooom!


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[Patrick T.]

Re: What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

Jerry, that is a long question, I could spend an hour writing this, but I'll be brief: I have the original tank sticker, all of the documentation from the DMV for the first 5 owners, including the original dealer, everything matches with the tank sticker. I've spoke with the original owner, who gave me the whole story of the car, what DAY he picked it up from the dealer. Also, I had Fred Greco at 4 Cee confirm the shipping date. ALL of the dates match with each other.

The surface of the engine pad seems to be very smooth, except for barely visable, straight horizontal lines which stretch from the front of the car to the rear. The numbers are worn and all evenly stamped and are thin in body. There are no circular grooves on the pad which would indicate the block has been decked and restamped.

I could go on, but I've got the car in a show for the first time Memorial day weekend, so I'll have to talk to the judge, but back to my question......

[Robert C.]

Re: What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

I guess I kinda agree with Dale. There are all kinds of broach marks, highly visable,coarse,smooth,barely visable etc. The longer you judge engine pads, the more varieties you see, and the easier you are on the score. Also, like Dale, the older you get, the smoother the pads look!!!


NCRS-Texas Chapter

[David K.]

Re: Lacquer & stamp pads; Philosophy 101 (again)

Jerry, I think we are virtually saying the same thing.I know that any thing is only original once.But, in my opinion the word still means to take back to original,we all know that we can't put the original air back in the tires but, we can put the original type of paint back on the car.In my opinion, is that restored,yes. Is that original, no.The original paint can only be or put on the car once.

[Dale Pearman]

Re: What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

The older I get the more un-smoother I get! Ain't nothin wrong with my eyesight if I can still shoot the end off my girlfriend's cigarette with a 22 at 50 feet! (which is what we sometimes do around here for entertainment). Pete Swatsky brought an NOS 870 block to the regional in Florida not long ago and we were all amazed at the ABSENCE of "broach or whatever" marks. I looked at it with a jeweler's loop and could see linear tooling marks with the loop. It was very smoooooooooooooooooooooooth to my naked eye. Hey, that reminds me, I'm gonna put on Santana's new CD and stir up some Beefeater. Hope I got another Dominican. I wonder if the girlfriend's out of the hospital yet?

Varooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo om!


CLICK HERE

[Chris H.]

Re: What Are Broach Marks 101 ?

Ahhhh, just took my L78 side pipe coupe out for an after dinner run through the gears.

Let me tell you that the last thing on my mind as the exhaust note built to a furious exploding 6500 rpm crescendo was.....the engine pad.

[Terry M.]

Re: Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. *TL*

Dale,

You may think a broach makes round holes - and it does, but Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. made the machines used at Flint and Tonawanda and they call them broaching machines. It is tradition that the maker gets to call the machine what they want.

Next time you use your belt sander you can call IT what YOU want. Maybe you want to call it varoooooooooooooooooooooooooom! Then we should all look for varoooooooooooooooooooooooooom marks.

Terry

[Jerry Clark]

McManmon = 1 Pearman ?

The Tennessee VAROOOOOOOOOOM Milling machine and broach marking device company incorporated.