Could my trim tag be wrong?

[Jim P.]

I am currently doing a body off restoration on my 64 coupe. The car is equipped with a powerglide, a/c and no power windows. It was my original intent to restore the car to NCRS standards but something has come up that may change my course. The trim tag labels the car as 490AA. According to what I have researched, this means a coupe, with red vinyl, without power windows and without automatic transmission. The car’s current configuration is in contradiction with the tag. I have owned the car for 30 years (1977) and have made no configuration changes. The car has a matching numbers engine that has never been a apart and in the opinion of the restoration shop has never been out of the car. It has an SL suffix, indicating auto and air. The vin on the body and the engine match. What I believe is the original Carter AFB carb is still in the car. It is a 3720 indicative of an automatic transmission dated in October 63. The body build date is B30, Oct 30/St. Louis. The trim tag was examined using the guidelines in the Grenning/Sinor trim tag book and we believe it is the original tag. All the other info on the trim tag is correct and appropriate for the car except the 490AA. Bob “Stretch” Zimmerman is doing the restoration in Naperville, IL. I believe his experience and knowledge to be highly recognized in the Chicago area and in his opinion the car has never had a manual transmission. He believes that the tag has been in error since it was installed at the factory in 1963. Everything points to a PG car except the trim code. I know there was a change in the ECL’s in March of 64 but that wouldn’t apply to my early build car. I have researched the archives and found that examples of type-o’s on the trim tag did exist. I have no intention of changing the trim tag for judging. My long winded question is, how will this discrepancy affect the judging of my car? Keep in mind that I have no other documentation with this car. Back in 1977, if it looked like a vette and drove like a vette, it was a vette. I didn’t need proof on paper (if we had only known). How does NCRS view this situation? If I will lose significant points then I will continue with the body off but I will not restore to NCRS standards. Of course, I need to make this decision before I get too far (and too much money) into it. As always, your experience and advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Jim

[Patrick H.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Jim,

How about posting a very good picture of it?

Could it be wrong? Sure. That kind of thing happened. A local 66 had a mistype in the VIN number yet it was not a fake.
But I doubt you'll get a definite answer without anyone seeing it or the car.

Just my thoughts.

Patrick

[Patrick H.]

One more thought

Jim,

I'd recommend purchasing the books on Trim Tags through the NCRS bookstore.
If you do that, and you can verify that you don't have a repro Trim Tag by following the examples and rules in the book, then just chalk it up to factory error. I'm sure it's not the only error on your car, it's just the one that causes you the most stress.

I won't say that "nobody" fakes a Powerglide car, but it's gotta be close to "nobody."

Patrick

[Eric F.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Jim,

I agree with Patrick that almost nobody would fake a Powerglide car. It's possible the car was ordered as a manual and arrived at the dealer as such but the first buyer wanted an automatic so the dealer installed it. Back then dealers would commonly do whatever it took to make the customer happy, especially if they could make more money. It's also possible the car was initially intended to be a manual but was changed to an automatic at the factory, either on the line or after it left the line. It's been my experience that all automobile manufacturers issued trim tags but more than once sent cars out of the factory with items not consistent with the tags. I think it would be difficult, if not impossible to discern if the car left the factory with a powerglide or if the dealer installed it at that time.

If it were me I would still restore the car to NCRS standards. You can change that later if needed buts its more difficult to go back to NCRS standards from a modified or customized version.

Good luck.

Eric

[Jack W.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

"I think it would be difficult, if not impossible to discern if the car left the factory with a powerglide or if the dealer installed it at that time."

au contraire, as for the car in question here, if it left the factory with a MT and the dealer put a PG in there to accommadate the customer (and also obtained the proper PG console, in red) wouldn't the tranny be missing the VIN derivative stamp?

[Jim P.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Thanks for the responses guys.
I have thought over each of these possible scenarios. The main reason that I doubt the transmission was changed at the dealership is because of the block suffix. The SL suffix indicates 300HP, powerglide and a/c. The dealership could have changed the transmission but I doubt they would have changed the block to match. If someone went to the trouble to forge a powerglide, then why leave an obviously telltale wrong trim tag in the car. Also, all of this must have been done prior to 1977. I just don’t think anyone would have gone to this trouble back then (was it even possible 30 years ago?) since you could buy a 67 BB for $7000. Jack brought up the vin on the trans. I have not yet located the vin which may be the definitive piece of evidence. Granted, the trans is covered with 40 years of dirt and grime, and, I know the numbers are often faint. Where on the case would be the most logical place to look? I’ll search for the numbers this weekend. BTW, we have the trim tag book which is what caused this question to come up. The shop guys were practicing their trim tag identification on my car! I have received a couple of emails on the subject. The general consensus is to continue with the restoration to NCRS standards. Jim

[Chris Patrick]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

The general consensus is to continue with the restoration to NCRS standards. Jim

I don't think you can to NCRS standards, as they say it should be a manual according to the trim tag.

So the only way to restore is to how it left the factory, which conflicts with NCRS due to the tag.

Don't change things you are sure were on the car just to match the NCRS judging guide. Your engine/transmission/trim tag issue is an example that things don't always match the book.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Too bad you didn't figure it out before you took the car apart. You might have been able to have Roy Sinor "sign off" on the car in its pre-restoration configuration.

Just restore it as you've known it for 30 years. I don't think it will be an issue.

Patrick

[Jim P.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Here's a pic of the tag. I will press ahead with the restoration using NCRS as a guidline. Fortunately, the car is very complete and I have 95% of the original and dated parts. If I decide not to be judged, the main thing I will do contrary to NCRS is the paint. I won't have to make that decision for a few months. I have been advised to have an independent party come out and look at the car and give me their opinion; probably a good idea. At least I'll have a rough idea of what to expect on the judging field.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Jim,

Remember, you can paint it purple bass boat metalflake and still get a Top Flight. So, what you do with paint will not disqualify you from having it judged. You just need to make informed decisions as to where you may lose points in the judging process.

Patrick

[Jim P.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

I think I'll throw in the towel now. I could never compete against that!

[Patrick H.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

LOL!

I know it's not a Corvette, but I couldn't find that great of an example of "bass boat metalflake purple" on a Corvette. There's one in a garage near me, but I don't have any pictures.

You get the point, though.

Patrick

[Philip C.]

Ive never seen a vin on a auto trans

If you have had this car for as long as you say, The motor assy code says auto and its orig THATS proof enough, you could check out the trans cooler installation if it was installed by ANYONE else than the factory you can tell if its real or not,the dealer not changing pedel assy either for a trans change. Console is the same for stick or auto in 64. The shift boot is different its a two piece deal on auto. My 64 coupe Daytona Blue w/white leather has a conv. trim tag and its real.I posted about trim tags before, if anyone has half a brain and 15x mag glass and a couple of tags to view, in a half hour they could become an expert on them, impossible to fake, Ya I know, someone is taken orig tags and changing the numbers. If their changing one number they have a chance but if you take a little time and learn and do a little research no way. Phil 8063

[Joe R.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Hi Jim:

There have been many cases where there was an apparent error in the trim tag and judges have accepted it as a factory error. Trim tags were done manually by a human using a special machine, so there was plenty of room for human error.

When making a judgement about originality, judges will want to consider the preponderence of evidence, as indicated by the other factors that suggest the car was an original Powerglide car. In my view, the block stamping is a major factor. If the block pad checks out as real and the trim tag checks out as real, ONE on them must be in error.

I also wonder whether a close inspection might show that certain clutch components, such as the cross shaft, appear to have never been installed. If they had been there at one time there might be tell-tale bolt marks and other traces.

Regarding the transmission, there is no VIN on a Powerglide but on my 67 there is a date code stamped on the transmission pan. Finding a correct date on the pan would be just another small piece of evidence, but certainly not compelling by itself, since pans can be easily changed.

In any event, I think you will be okay in NCRS judging if all the various bits of evidence point to a Powerglide car and the only discrepancy is the ECL on the trim tag. Do your research and have the data available for discussion if it becomes an issue.

[Jim P.]

Re: Could my trim tag be wrong?

Thanks for the responses. I'm glad you brought up the trans vin, Joe. I was looking all over for that number and couldn't find it. Unfortuanately, the pan has been changed to the non-drain type. I think those numbers are long gone. I'm taking pictures and even some rubbings of all the engine components' numbers and dates while the engine is apart. I'll piece all the evidence together and be ready to plead my case if questioned. Jim