Lacquer primer question...

[Greg L.]

Re: Lacquer primer question...

Oh brother....just when I "figured out the answer, someone went and changed the question" on me again!

It never ever dawned on me that lacquer primer would be an issue because that was what I used when I first painted this car back in the 80's. I then took it in for paint and they shot it with Siekens? BCCC and it was done...end of story. I figured that if it worked then that it would work again. The shop that mentioned they would have to remove my primer didn't mention anything about a chemical reaction but that nothing with stick to it. I will say though that I stripped 75% of the car back down to the lacquer primer that I put on way back then with just an air hose so ya, their top coat wasn't sticking too well the primer....I just though that it was poor prep on their part but maybe not.

Why don't I go lacquer? Well, I've been on this fence for quite a while now on which way to go and can't deceide. There are so many pros and cons of using lacquer or acrylic enamel depending on who you talk to that it is VERY confusing for me to make a choice. This might just be the one that tips it in favor of lacquer.

Using DPLF might be my only option to not use a lacquer topcoat and I say only because I am not stripping all the Dupont primer surfacer off. I just put too much time and effort making the body the way it is to just wash it all off for the sake of using a non lacquer topcoat. The one concern I have is will the paint look thick with sealer and acrylic enamel? I'm guessing yes... I guess I'll look into the DPLF as a sealer and then a source for correct Cortez Silver lacquer and go from there. I'll also check the archives again on the lacquer durability issues which is my main concern with it.

Thanks for all of your thoughts guys, you are the best! If you can think of anything else to help me out of this "hole" that I'm in I'd appreciate it!

Sure glad I'm doing this now and not a month before I want it painted!!

[Chuck S.]

Re: Lacquer primer question...

"I just put too much time and effort making the body the way it is to just wash it all off for the sake of using a non lacquer topcoat."

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do, but regardless of what they say, the shop is more concerned with their liability for a paint job over unknown prep. Personally, I wouldn't want to leave it on there either, unless I was absolutely, positively sure that the primer was going to adhere to the fiberglass for the life of the paint job. Otherwise, if I had any doubts at all, it would come off.

What do you mean "wash it off"?...Are you concerned that if you use lacquer thinner to clean the primer off, you'll contaminate the body filler underneath? You probably would; So, sand it off...that is what is typically done with factory primer on Corvettes anyway. Applying that much solvent to your fiberglass just before painting would be a bad idea.

The factory paint was primer, sealer, and lacquer...one coat each I believe; pretty thin. In fact, it was so thin, you could see through to the fiberglass in places.

I don't think you will have any problems with lacquer looking "thick" regardless of how many coats you apply. Acrylic urethane would tend to build up at the edges of parts like the hood and doors, and these areas will require special attention...they will have to be blocked flat. As far as mechanical problems with the thickness of the coatings, I believe you can have more than 10 mils total DFT before you get into problems.

I just finished a acrylic urethane paint job that must have close to 10 mil total DFT applied: factory primer (1/2 mil to 1 mil), one wet coat DPLF epoxy primer (1 mil), 4 coats acrylic urethane primer-surfacer (block sanded; maybe 2-3 mils remain), 1 coat reduced DPLF as sealer (1 mil), and 3 coats single-stage acrylic urethane (3 mils). That adds up to about 8-9 mils. If you want your paint to look thin, better go with the lacquer. This paint job doesn't look "thick", but the vehicle does look like it's made of red glass.

[Dick W.]

Re: Lacquer primer question...

The one point missed here is that NO painter or paint manufacturer will stand behind his work/materials unless the TOTAL product is by one manufacturer. Been there, done that in the '70's with Imron and SW lacquer primer. DuPont laughed at us when we asked for help with paint problems when they found out that we were still using the cheap lacquer primer/surfacer. They blamed the problem on the primer, SW would not even talk about helping with the problem. Same thing holds true today.

[Mike G.]

Re: DuPont VelvaSealr

Check out Dupont's Acrylic Sealer. It's called Velvaseal, the number is 1986 as I recall. It's compatible with the Lucite lacquer system. Should be exactly what you need, because it can be topcoated with just about any material: AE, urethane, lacquer.

[Greg L.]

Re: Lacquer primer question...

"I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do, but regardless of what they say, the shop is more concerned with their liability for a paint job over unknown prep. Personally, I wouldn't want to leave it on there either, unless I was absolutely, positively sure that the primer was going to adhere to the fiberglass for the life of the paint job. Otherwise, if I had any doubts at all, it would come off. "

I can see your point Chuck about the painter being cautious about unknown prep because that was what a few of them have mentioned to me in the past. My answer was that they didn't have to worry about my prep....just that their paint will stick to my primer but some still didn't like the idea. I have no doubt that the primer will stick to the body because I did it the exact same way as I did it back in 88 and I never had any problems with primer lifting from the body. The topcoat lifted from the primer in a few places from stone chips and a fender lip or two but that was it. That's why I'm thinking that I'll have no issues with my primer not sticking to the body this time around either.

"What do you mean "wash it off"?..." ya I was thinking with lacquer thinner because I thought someone had mentioned that...maybe not...yes I would think that sanding would be better. I'm kinda going in circles here now trying to figure out all my options to get this project back on track... I guess at this point thought I'll have to exhaust all my options before I take all the primer surfacer off down to the original paint/primer and my repairs.

Oh someone had mentioned why I don't just use lacquer... Well that is a good option and looking better every day but it will obviously have to be brought in from some place because you can't get it here. The big problem besides the durability issues(which some say is not an issue) will be getting a perfect match. That was why I started to call around looking for a painter locally. I figured that if I could find one that they could do a color match from an area of original paint so then at least the color, shade, tint, flakes, etc would be correct. No it wouldn't be lacquer but with some work it could be made to LOOK like lacquer.

If I don't have it mixed based on my original paint then am I not at the mercy of the paint formula which may or may not be close?

I also realize that you should stick with one paint brand for the whole job and I pretty much did that with Evercoat products for the fiberglass and spot repairs and Dupont for the primer and I had hoped, paint. But I thought that once a sealer was used that you could then switch brands for the topcoat or am I wrong. I know that it might not be recommended but I also know many that have done that. It was always in the back of my mind that "hey if Dupont doesn't have a match then I'll just find someone that can match it and use a sealer to separate them. I'm pretty sure this will would but my ignorance truely is bliss so what do you think?

I found the spec sheet for DPLF so now I'll try and find the one for Velvaseal 1986 and see what it's all about.

Having lots of fun now....

[Chuck S.]

Re: Lacquer primer question...

What do I think?...

(1) I wouldn't use different manufacturer's products...one brand and one system from fiberglass to final coat.

There are two reasons for this: (A) there may actually be chemical interactions between the products that will cause visible problems with the topcoat, and (B) regardless if there are interactons or not, you're not going to be able to get any manufacturer (or painter) to address problems with their product if you haven't followed manufacturer's recommendations. If any other manufacturer's product is involved, then it's going to be the other guys fault...I learned this early in my work career; shared responsibilities will leave the other guy a loophole to get his crap through, and NO ONE will address this screwup.

(2) I wouldn't leave that primer on there...you're betting your entire paint job and all the assembly work afterward on the compatibility of that primer with whatever product you apply. Jon Koslowski, renowned custom painter, recommends sanding the substrate with 80 grit paper to INSURE adhesion of the primer...I'm not sure I'm completely comfortable with that, but I know the product I use (PPG K36 Acrylic Urethane primer-surfacer) will fill 36 grit scratches if necessary!

I know you're proud of that 1988 primer, but you still don't know why the previous color wouldn't stick to it. I suspect poor sanding prep, but I wouldn't bet my paint job on it. I have seen epoxy primer, which will stick to ANYTHING, chip off acrlic urethane primer-surfacer at the part edges, along with the color on top. There can be only one possible explanation for this failure: Because of the danger of breaking through on edges, I didn't insure that the edges were thoroughly sanded.

[Joe M.]

Re: Lacquer primer question...

do yourself a favor and check out the dupont technical sheets created for each product....it will give the compatible undercoats and topcoats, nozzle size, viscosity, air pressure, etc.....the only way to get accurate info is reading what the chemists have to say about their products....remember, 'more durable' is a relative term as in bc/cc vs acrylic lacquer !

I'd remove the acrylic primer, use epoxy over the bodywork and bare glass and then followup with acrylic lacquer or ss urethane or bc/cc. Acrylic primer as is can work if it is not contaminated with grease, etc. You can just sand, prime some more, sand and use whatever sealer dupont makes these days....they use a valueshade system with their primers and sealers to better mate with a specific color. Check the dupont tech sheets....or the PPG sheets, or ......