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I wonder why GM engineering didn't do that in the first place. Guess they didn't employ auto enthusiasts! The "upgrade" (downgrade) MC won't clear the air cleaner on FI cars.
Good luck in re-engineering the C1 Corvette brake system.
Dale I'm begining to wonder the same thing myself (upgrade/downgrade), the car is going to be a driver so I,m not too worried about mods, but messing with GM brake designs at all is questionable. They sugested going accross the firewall with the rear brake line??
Any other input bad or good is welcome as I have not started putting brakes or lines on the chasis yet. Also what do you think about the CC front disc brake "upgrade"? David
After having been employed by Eckler's, I've learned that ANY SCHEME to get into a customer's pocketbook is an "UPGRADE". This buzz-word works almost as well as "PROTECT".
I've tried the Engineered Components disc brake system on my 1962 driver and found that it DOES NOT require less pedal pressure nor does it stop the car any better. In fact, the single calipers with Ford Pinto roller bearings are dangerous! I've had two separate bearing failures at speed, one of them with an NCRS Director in the passenger seat while doing about 90 MPH.
Many people convert to disc brakes thinking the effect will be that of POWER brakes. NOT SO!
If you can lock-up the front axle with drum brakes, then what's the advantage of locking the front axle up with disc brakes? The same pedal pressure is required.
Also, the ball bearings on the front axles have worked just fine for years and years on the street and in 150 MPH competitive events such as LeMans, Sebring and Daytona, not to mention countless SCCA races. They do provide for side loading.
If a person wants to match expertiese with 500 or so graduate professional engineers by re-engineering the C1 Corvette then GO FOR IT! I've learned the hard and expensive way that I'm no match for the design decisions that made the 1962 Corvette the greatest all time sports car in history!
Dale I appreciate your insight on the history but having a similar
problem I would also like to know from the membership at large.
What to do about the braking system on my c1, the previous owner
converted to front disc brakes and completely rebuilt the rear drums
however he left the tiny little MC in place. I am wrong to want to replace
it with a Dual MC? and wouldn't a proportioning valve redirect the right
pressures to front and rear???
Other than returning the system to that which was ORIGINALALLY designed, I can offer no advice on improving things. I trust a residual pressure valve was installed to separate the front from the rear configurations. The brakes won't work without it.
I recently wrestled with the same question and chose to redo the 100% original C1 (in my case 61) brake system. My rational was that it stopped me in the early 60's and 70's at high speed and it stops me now at medium speed. I will never drive the car like I did in 1967 so why change a good system??
Reference to your post about tiny master cylinders. I have a 68 manual brakes and a 70 power brakes. The 68's master cylinder uses a smaller master cylinder with its manual brakes that what the 70 uses with power brakes. Some would think that a larger master cylinder is better, but evidently the engineers applied what was best with each system.
the larger the bore in the M/C the harder it is to push the pedal to get the same stopping power so that is why the std brake system has a smaller bore. also the stroke is shorter with the larger piston because you are displacing more fluid which work well with the power brakes
I have trouble buying into the idea that C1s acheived engineering perfection. Which is better, disks or drums? Call me crazy, but I gotta say disk brakes, even though I'm aware that the C1 design teams were very educated and intelligent guys. Which is safer, single MC or dual MC? Better color me crazy once again. If for no other reason than if one of those movie bad guys tries to murder me by cutting my brake lines, on MY car, he has to cut BOTH lines! And I'd definitely prefer tapered roller bearings to ball bearings.
I believe the failure-prone Chinese bearings Dale refers to are no longer included in these kits, but it's an easy swap if they are. Now, as an owner of the Master Power kit for my '58, I can say it is by no means perfect. And I don't think the conversion is anything anyone NEEDS to do (unless those bad guys have been eying your brake lines). But I do think we need to keep in touch with reality as far as modern vs anciant technologies.
And we are a RESTORATION organization instead of an improvement organization. If you are looking for street performance you can do a LOT better than a Corvette. In fact some buiuld street rods that perform in incredible fashion using modern technology.
If I were going road racing or circle track racing I'd never use a drum type system. If I were taking a C1 Corvette to the Scottsdale auction or anywhere else to sell I'd insist on the original drum system.
WITHOUT thinking, so many of us destroy history and spend a fortune to lower the value of our C1 Corvettes.
But to each his own! For every C1 Corvette altered with "upgrades" I realize a marginal gain in the value of my collection.
Since my car is a DRIVER only, and will never be anything but a driver, and will be driven on the street, maybe even daily, with all the other people who have power 4-wheel disc, anti-lock brakes, and since most of these people choose to use thier brakes much harder than in 1962 and can stop much faster I will choose to upgrade my car just as Chevrolet did in 1965 to disc brakes.
I was at the Ecklers corvette reunion in 96 and saw first hand what happens when old vettes and new (91 with z-r1 brakes) get together for a road tour and start driving and stopping hard. Only 4 corvettes were damaged, one 93 ann. car would not even drive after being hit on both ends. Eckler himself set the pace by leaving first (like a maniac), I guess this was good if you sell vette parts. I know these were heated moments with crazies at the wheel but isn't that who we drive with every day.
I will be keeping all my original parts for future owners and would never consider changing the parts on my other car (all original 65 FI coupe) or any original corvette that may be judged one day.
Now if I could get some help from anyone who has been through this brake upgrade and their system works I would apreciate it very much. David
David, I've done it, but haven't driven it yet. I ran the second line along the front crossmember. Since the body was off the frame, I didn't consider going along the firewall. That might be easier. Master cylinder and new rod is simple bolt-in.
I bought the brake conversion kit from Master Power Brakes. I think that's who CC gets theirs from. The instructions are extremely minimal. The disk conversion will move your front wheels outward an inch or so (might be less). I bought brake lines from In-Line Tubing (I think that's the name). I was real happy with them. Let me know any other questions you have.
the disc conversion "upgrade" several times on my own Corvettes with very disappointing results. On two occasions I have been endangered by bearing failures.
The first experience was fabricating my own conversion set-up by heat treating and shot peening home-made caliper holders, experimentinmg with residual pressure valves, finding tapered roller bearings, rotors, etc.
My comments and opinions are formed by my own experiences over the past 24 years. As I have stated, to each his own. If you want to build an Eckler's drag racer then have at it. I've been in many a lunch-time Route 1 race to the restaurant with some pretty crazy people in C4's as well as other models. I can't remember any incidents involving getting stopped for the parking lot with my drum brakes.
I'd surely appreciate some technical facts supporting discs on a C1 Corvette. I don't have any!
How long ago did your Eckler's experience happen? Ralph has been in the Bahamas for years while Bob is in very serious condition healthwise and has been unable to drive for the past five years.
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