License Frame judging????

[Joseph S.]

So here is my question, and it is based on judging theory and logic. Our Judging standard (as written in our past and current Judging Reference Manual) is to judge to the "Appearance" of factory original production. Why would a judge penalize the owner 1 point for a correct looking Stainless steel license plate bezel that has rivets that do not attract a magnet?

[Harry S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Joe, in many of the JG's the words magnetic, non-stainless, natural steel, etc exist. Saying that, is that to be taken as part of the definition of judging CONFIGURATION. If yes, then a magnet is used. If not, then I'd suggest removing any reference to those terms and just say Natural or Chrome. Then confiscate all the judges magnets.

I like the word appears, then I have less tools to carry to a judging meet.

I do not recall how many points are there but one point could be the Judge is not familiar with CDCIF scoring.

[Dave S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Joe, in many of the JG's the words magnetic, non-stainless, natural steel, etc exist. Saying that, is that to be taken as part of the definition of judging CONFIGURATION. If yes, then a magnet is used. If not, then I'd suggest removing any reference to those terms and just say Natural or Chrome. Then confiscate all the judges magnets.

I like the word appears, then I have less tools to carry to a judging meet.

I do not recall how many points are there but one point could be the Judge is not familiar with CDCIF scoring.

To my knowledge the original rivets in original frames are configured differently than the later GM frames. I go by the look rather than checking with a magnet. Also the clips on original frames have numerous stampings.

[John D.]

Re: License Frame judging????

A license plate frame is a science unto it's self. Lot more to it than SS rivets as a lot of you know.
In the old days when the midyears were new the dealers had their own frames. If you bought a new Corvette at Grabiak Chevrolet most likely the SS frames were not behind the seat.
Clem will vouch for that.

[Joseph S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

So let's take this a step further! The items on that line are License frame and bracket. Now the points involved for originality are 3 total. The frame is one piece. The bracket has the bracket, 2 mounting bolts, nuts and lock washers, a rubber bumper and 2 plastic nuts with screws. So I would allocate 2 points to the frame and it's hardware and 1 point for the License frame. SO, if the owner has a stainless reproduction frame that has an "appearance" like the original frame, and the item has a value of 1 point, how can we take the entire 1 point as a deduction? This should be a 0.2 point deduction for ?? Finish?? Maybe I dispute this also since the finish is proper Stainless steel!! Anyway I slice it, I can not justify a 1 point deduction for this issue. I certainly would make a note for the owner, in case he wants to make his car closer to original.

[Mark D.]

Re: License Frame judging????

If appearance is the key, the only frames that appear typical are originals and, it has nothing much to do with rivets or whether it's magnetic.

[Russ S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

If appearance is the key, the only frames that appear typical are originals and, it has nothing much to do with rivets or whether it's magnetic.

I disagree. The later GM frames appear as originals but do have a different rivet.

[Ara G.]

Re: License Frame judging????

To my knowledge the original rivets in original frames are configured differently than the later GM frames. I go by the look rather than checking with a magnet. Also the clips on original frames have numerous stampings.

Stricky, the rivets were definitely different - as is the color of the clips (black versus silver) as well the patent numbers on the clips. However, speaking to Joe's question - maybe a 1 point deduction is a fair deduction if BOTH the front and rear frames do not appear TFP (albeit the rivets, magnetic, etc). Maybe a dot in the front license frame section may lead to a 1 point deduct when combined with the rear license frame section. Just thinking out loud. Also, judging configuration of the frame may require a magnet to determine what type of metal it is. Hope you're well Joe! Haven't talked with you for moons. Best to the family. ARA

[Mark D.]

Re: License Frame judging????

I disagree. The later GM frames appear as originals but do have a different rivet.

OK, good point. Ya still don't need a magnet.

I think magnets are fair play, personally. I use one during judging. If I'm told not to, because of the rules, I'll stop.

[Jim S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

OK, good point. Ya still don't need a magnet.

I think magnets are fair play, personally. I use one during judging. If I'm told not to, because of the rules, I'll stop.

Let's play "What If?" What if the car owner says, don't touch my car with any tool including a magnet. How should a judge handle this?

[Joseph S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Ara, great to hear from you. Everyone is great! It's been tough to travel for NCRS lately. Just a few Regionals and the National for me! Both Dani and JoJo in High School so my time is no longer my own. Missed Kissimmee this year due to a death in the family. I will see everyone in Lakeland this year. Regards, Joe

[Joseph S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

If we are judging to a standard of "Appearance" why would we ever need to touch a magnet to someone's Corvette?

[Jaime G.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Let's play "What If?" What if the car owner says, don't touch my car with any tool including a magnet. How should a judge handle this?

Lets Not Play What If? we have been told repeatedly at Judging School and by Team Leaders not to touch the cars.Using a magnet is not only absurd, but it can damage the finish of some one's property. When I judge, I don't use magnets. When one of my cars is being judged, and I see a judge using a magnet, I politely ask them to not touch. Why are we concerned about license plate frame rivets? In the grand scheme of the car's originality it's chicken feed.

[Joseph S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Jamie, I think you and Ara hit the nail (or Rivet) right on the head! Not to insult anyone else who responded to this thread, but I think at times we miss the big picture on the judging field. This is not a statement about the value of the car or the value of a genuine GM part. It is about judging the car to our standard for Flight judging. Granted, the car with the mint condition original GM license frames may be worth more at the time of sale, we are not concerned with the value. It is a question I asked to show that at times we penalize the owner for points he does not deserve to loose. If it were your car and you had the judging knowledge you would not be happy with a judge who takes 1 full point for an item who's entire value is 1 point because of a minor issue. If the proper point deduction should only be 0.2 points then we need to judge accordingly. Step back and look at the big picture. The items NCRS is concerned about carry the greater point totals.

[Philip A.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Jamie and Joe
i completely agree! APPEARANCE to original! A friends original unrestored survivor car with original paint and unhit body was Flight Judged. He received a deduct because the body judge felt there was excessive bonding agent on one fender. Everyother person that looked at this car agreed it was factory original. The judge would not budge from his NTP attitude.