License Frame judging????

[Patrick H.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Jamie and Joe
i completely agree! APPEARANCE to original! A friends original unrestored survivor car with original paint and unhit body was Flight Judged. He received a deduct because the body judge felt there was excessive bonding agent on one fender. Everyother person that looked at this car agreed it was factory original. The judge would not budge from his NTP attitude.

And that's the beauty of the system - you can bring it back another day, and for $35 or so have an entirely new assessment done of the car. Shy of Bowtie judging, none of the judgings are written in stone.

[Dave S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

So let's take this a step further! The items on that line are License frame and bracket. Now the points involved for originality are 3 total. The frame is one piece. The bracket has the bracket, 2 mounting bolts, nuts and lock washers, a rubber bumper and 2 plastic nuts with screws. So I would allocate 2 points to the frame and it's hardware and 1 point for the License frame. SO, if the owner has a stainless reproduction frame that has an "appearance" like the original frame, and the item has a value of 1 point, how can we take the entire 1 point as a deduction? This should be a 0.2 point deduction for ?? Finish?? Maybe I dispute this also since the finish is proper Stainless steel!! Anyway I slice it, I can not justify a 1 point deduction for this issue. I certainly would make a note for the owner, in case he wants to make his car closer to original.

My approach would be that they represent 2 of the 3 points. If the rivet and clips are NTP then the GM frames are pretty much 80 percent NTP. (With the magnet they may be 100 percent). A 1 point deduct for both frames is more than fair.

[Harry S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

My approach would be that they represent 2 of the 3 points. If the rivet and clips are NTP then the GM frames are pretty much 80 percent NTP. (With the magnet they may be 100 percent). A 1 point deduct for both frames is more than fair.

Dave, I don't have a blank set of sheets but I think the front and back are separate line items.

[Ara G.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Dave, I don't have a blank set of sheets but I think the front and back are separate line items.

Harry, they ARE separate line items - meaning the front and the back license frames. That's why I mentioned a dot for the front being NTP and another dot totaling a one point deduct for the rear also being NTP seems fair.

[Mark D.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Let's play "What If?" What if the car owner says, don't touch my car with any tool including a magnet. How should a judge handle this?

That's easy...I would respect the owners wishes and do the best I could without the aid of any 'tools.' It's the owner's car, not mine. If I felt that a magnet was necessary, I would ask the owner to use it. If the owner would not use the magnet, I would make a call to the best of my ability. I would give the owner benefit of the doubt.

[Mark D.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Using a magnet is not only absurd, but it can damage the finish of some one's property

When one of my cars is being judged, and I see a judge using a magnet, I politely ask them to not touch.

I respectfully disagree. A magnet is not harmful to a finish.

If you politely, or otherwise, told me not to touch your car with a magnet, I would politely and immediately comply with your wishes.

[Dave S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Harry, they ARE separate line items - meaning the front and the back license frames. That's why I mentioned a dot for the front being NTP and another dot totaling a one point deduct for the rear also being NTP seems fair.

I was going by the points in an earlier post. Based on the front and rear being separate then your call seems fair to me.

[Ara G.]

Re: License Frame judging????

I respectfully disagree. A magnet is not harmful to a finish.

If you politely, or otherwise, told me not to touch your car with a magnet, I would politely and immediately comply with your wishes.

Mark, I agree with you on both counts - BUT it begs the question then. How would we judge the master cylinder bails being steel/magnetic, and the fuel lines, and the oil pressure line, etc. If we can't use a magnet to determine what material the item is made of and it's readily discernible to the naked eye then how do we judge it? I taped a small piece of an old/clean t shirt to the end of my small magnet when judging. That way no issues with scratches, etc. I also use a very small magnet that holds just enough to tell me if the item is steel or not. Cheers. ARA

[Harry S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Mark, I agree with you on both counts - BUT it begs the question then. How would we judge the master cylinder bails being steel/magnetic, the fuel lines, and the oil pressure line, etc. If we can't use a magnet to determine what material the item is made of and it's readily discernible to the naked eye then how do we judge it? I taped a small piece of an old/clean t shirt to the end of my small magnet when judging. That way no issues with scratches, etc. I also use a very small magnet that holds just enough to tell me if the item is steel or not. Cheers. ARA

Ara, that was my point in my first post. If the JG says magnetic, not magnetic, stainless, magnetic stainless, chrome, natural steel or something else, then the JG is defining the first C in CDCIF. How else would you verify magnetic without a magnet. If we're not to touch the car then remove all that erroneous text from the JG.

[Edward J.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Jamie, I think you and Ara hit the nail (or Rivet) right on the head! Not to insult anyone else who responded to this thread, but I think at times we miss the big picture on the judging field. This is not a statement about the value of the car or the value of a genuine GM part. It is about judging the car to our standard for Flight judging. Granted, the car with the mint condition original GM license frames may be worth more at the time of sale, we are not concerned with the value. It is a question I asked to show that at times we penalize the owner for points he does not deserve to loose. If it were your car and you had the judging knowledge you would not be happy with a judge who takes 1 full point for an item who's entire value is 1 point because of a minor issue. If the proper point deduction should only be 0.2 points then we need to judge accordingly. Step back and look at the big picture. The items NCRS is concerned about carry the greater point totals.

Joe, I agree that the point value seems to be a big issue with a lot of judges and the if the CDCIF is not enforced by the judges then where does the restorer stand after making a valant effort to restore his car to NCRS standards, or closely to the standards. A magnet should not be a issue if the judge choses to question something for correctness. But the issue is fairness in the point values when things are broken down into just how many to each of components. having seen first hand during judging of my cars, Judges need to take a second more break down the components and then apply the values.

[Tony S.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Joe, your thoughts about judging a component by appearance is correct--that is, if CDCIF applies. However, that misses the point on Stainless steel. SS isn't judged on the basis of CDCIF. SS is subject to a standard deduction. Judges can test items such as a license plate frame, exhaust pipe extension, A-arm cover staples, brake lines and fuel lines respectfully and carefully with a magnet without any damage. After all, our cars aren't as fragile as a Faberge egg. As long as there is a standard deduction for SS, magnets are going to be used. Best, Tony

[Don H.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Another point about "touching the car." It would be very difficult to judge many areas: interior - kneeling next to the open door, mechanical - leaning over the fender, chassis - crawling under the car. Don H.

[Jaime G.]

Re: License Frame judging????

I respectfully disagree. A magnet is not harmful to a finish.

If you politely, or otherwise, told me not to touch your car with a magnet, I would politely and immediately comply with your wishes.

Thank You, that is what I would expect from a fair judge.

[Gene M.]

[Mark D.]

Re: License Frame judging????

Thank You, that is what I would expect from a fair judge.

They don't call me Mr. Fair, for nothing. That is what they call me, isn't it?