Judging Guides and Color Pictures

[Dave S.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Now send emails supporting to:

Dave Brigham
Your Regional Rep
Your Chapter Chairman
NCRS President Mike Ingham
NCRS Business Manager Mark Lincoln

and appropriate Team Leaders as you see fit.
Unfortunately it's not as easy as 20 of us saying Yes! here on the DB. If those in charge don't hear from us - preferably prior to the March Board Meeting - it's not going to happen.

Contact link:
https://www.ncrs.org/contact/index.php

Patrick has articulated what has to be done and why. This organization can be slow to change and our leaders need to recognize the upside to this request and not dwell on perceived potential problems that color manuals may cause. Please notify all applicable people and let them know that many members support this change.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I would implore those posting to please restrict comments to whether or not you are interested in moving the Judging Guides to a color photo format in printed form. As has been mentioned there are many other ways we could electronically use judging guides, but please make that a separate thread and discussion.

A comment, if I may.

A member has mentioned in an email to me that he was offended by this comment, and felt like I was trying to stifle discussion. That is not my intent at all! I can tell you that many times I've commented at judging events that it would be nice if we used current technology to assist us in judging cars, and I'm the one who loads photos of original cars onto my iPad so I can take it along and show owners at events how things are supposed to look. Having Judging Guides that are routinely updated, downloadable and "instantly available" would be a dream!

I've been a member over 25 years now. I say that only to mention that I've seen a lot of things happen in the NCRS, and a lot of things not happen. Since change seems to happen at a slow pace I know that the revision team I'm working with is hoping just to move forward one step, though if others want to take it further I applaud them! Right now, to get a Judging Guide that is in color and is printed, not copied, would be one big step. Given the small steps that seem to occur in the club I think we're OK with that for now but if it moves the organization toward even more change, I'm all for it!

To cause such change I think that in the NCRS we need to move one step at a time even though many of us can see 6 steps ahead. If you're in favor of such a change then please contact those I mentioned in an earlier post. That's the most important thing for now. And, if you want to keep dreaming of the possibilities, then go for it!

Patrick

[Gary J.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I also vote for color. If you contact your regional rep, you need to voice your opinion before the board meeting in March. I don't know what it would take to get it put on the agenda to be discuss.

[Mike E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Member #211 here. When I started in the Corvette hobby and in NCRS, we had to send SASE's to someone who advertised a part for sale. There wasn't a Driveline, we had a colored insert sheet. The Restorer was printed in black and white, and only 500 copies of each. There was one two-sided judging "manual" for all cars, 53-62. (We didn't recognize those nearly new 63-67's)! When I chaired my first 61-62 JG revision, it was done with typewriters rather than a computer.
We have progressed in many areas since then.
Many of the new JGs, when used by judges with people skill, are a tremendous asset to the hobby. Adding color would be one more step forward that I believe we need to take.
Patrick, thanks for your well-spoken words.

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Now send emails supporting to:

Dave Brigham
Your Regional Rep
Your Chapter Chairman
NCRS President Mike Ingham
NCRS Business Manager Mark Lincoln

and appropriate Team Leaders as you see fit.
Unfortunately it's not as easy as 20 of us saying Yes! here on the DB. If those in charge don't hear from us - preferably prior to the March Board Meeting - it's not going to happen.

Contact link:
https://www.ncrs.org/contact/index.php

Right, right, I'll send an email requesting this to all those people and Carlton, I'm sure they will listen to me and care what I think………...

[Bill C.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I personally would be very happy if clear color pictures were presented in the JG manual.

It may be as simple as a disclosure statement in the manual stating that "the colors presented may or may not be representative of what was applied at the assembly plant etc..."
Try to use only pictures that are typical in appearance.

I would think most of us would more than likely use the pictures to determine application/appearance - at least that would be how I would use them. I would NOT reference them for shade or tint.

for example: how much orange overspray hit the bypass hose or an edge of an aluminum intake.....


I have no issues at all paying more for the manual with clear color pictures.

my 2 cents...

Bill

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Here is a completely random example of a grayscale (not even B&W) page with a color page. Note that black-and-white made on a copy machine would be a fair amount less clear than my grayscale example. I did not cherry pick a page with a lot of color but instead used the page I'm currently editing, as it shows how color enhances even what appears to be a non-colorful page.

I hope that this does urge some of you, no matter what the year of your Corvette, to ask the Board to move forward with color.

Patrick

[Shannon U.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Merely my opinion as the ultimate minority in the NCRS. Settling for any TIMJG to be printed in black and white rather than in color is like settling for a second or third flight award. We all know that the NCRS can do better. If this hobby is to ultimately survive, it will only be with high quality photographic references of our educational materials that is preserved for current and future generations and restorers. It is time to embrace minimal technology standards and produce the best reference material possible while any nominal increase in cost of color worth being paid!

[Reba W.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

When Dick and I chaired the 1968-69 manual revision for Chuck Berge, we worked through the entire process with color, never dreaming it would not be printed that way. When we were shot down at the end, we both vowed not to work on another one in black and white. Yet, here I am on the 1970-72 revision team. Why? Because I want the best product for the membership.

The best product includes not only thorough word descriptions but color photos. Gary Bosselman has worked overtime to include detailed photos in this next one. The Chassis section has gone from 20 pages to 52, and Interior from 23 to 41. Part of this is expanded text, but most is due to photos. Look at the difference in the pages posted by Patrick.

Imagine all those wonderful tech articles in The Restorer having black and white photos and the detail that would be lost. Remember how long it took to get The Driveline and classified ads available online? Color photos in judging guides is just another point of progress that we must keep fighting for. "Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm." --Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Dan A.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

If I remember correctly this issue came up previously. I believe the explanation against was cost. Patrick has made the case clearly and succinctly.

I support the proposition to progress to printed color.

I would ask those that are quick to assert that they are quite willing to pay more to consider those that feel the need to purchase more than one year manual. At $50 a pop it gets expensive. Then when they revise the current expanded format manuals I'm looking at another $50 per manual.

Then consider, as I understand it there is considerable markup in the current manuals. Probably one of the major revenue streams. Printed color may threaten that margin. I believe the Board is currently struggling with high expenses and decreased revenues. In short a deficit. Further membership may be declining. That leaves the hope for the future with younger people. Very few of them are biting the hook for higher dues, high registration costs and $50 plus manuals.

Consider that higher prices have unintended consequences.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Very few of them are biting the hook for higher dues, high registration costs and $50 plus manuals.

Consider that higher prices have unintended consequences.

Even as a younger old guy I was a bit surprised at the costs of this year's National, especially with it being outdoors. Paying for that bothers me more than a $50 manual that only comes out every 10-15 years. Amortize the cost and it's nothing.

I've wished for years we had a Life Membership option, as I would have been ahead by now.

[Dave S.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Even as a younger old guy I was a bit surprised at the costs of this year's National, especially with it being outdoors. Paying for that bothers me more than a $50 manual that only comes out every 10-15 years. Amortize the cost and it's nothing.

I've wished for years we had a Life Membership option, as I would have been ahead by now.

One of the problems with this whole thing is that it has been stated that color manuals are more expensive. To my knowledge proper pricing has never been obtained. I think we should have that pricing information before we make that assumption.
I just sent in around $600 for the 2016 National registration and that does not include hotel, food and most trips. It will be $1500 plus before its over and I live 40 miles away.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

One of the problems with this whole thing is that it has been stated that color manuals are more expensive. To my knowledge proper pricing has never been obtained. I think we should have that pricing information before we make that assumption.
I just sent is around $600 for the 2015 National registration and that does not include hotel, food and most trips. It will be $1500 plus before its over and I live 40 miles away.

Not only pricing, but different options regarding how they're printed and distributed.

Currently there are plenty of "internet authors" who publish their books through an offsite location and have them drop shipped. If financially feasible this type of scenario sure would save Cincinnati some storage space. We do something similar right now with Chapter merchandise, where the order goes directly to the supplier who ships it to the customer member. It sure saves on the space that had been used in the garage to store 5 year old Chapter t-shirts!

And Dave, you're a year late registering for the 2015 event.

[Dave S.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Not only pricing, but different options regarding how they're printed and distributed.

Currently there are plenty of "internet authors" who publish their books through an offsite location and have them drop shipped. If financially feasible this type of scenario sure would save Cincinnati some storage space. We do something similar right now with Chapter merchandise, where the order goes directly to the supplier who ships it to the customer member. It sure saves on the space that had been used in the garage to store 5 year old Chapter t-shirts!

And Dave, you're a year late registering for the 2015 event.

Glad ad someone is reading my post. A fellow chapter member tipped me off too. Thanks

[Gene M.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

A comment, if I may.

A member has mentioned in an email to me that he was offended by this comment, and felt like I was trying to stifle discussion. That is not my intent at all! I can tell you that many times I've commented at judging events that it would be nice if we used current technology to assist us in judging cars, and I'm the one who loads photos of original cars onto my iPad so I can take it along and show owners at events how things are supposed to look. Having Judging Guides that are routinely updated, downloadable and "instantly available" would be a dream!

I've been a member over 25 years now. I say that only to mention that I've seen a lot of things happen in the NCRS, and a lot of things not happen. Since change seems to happen at a slow pace I know that the revision team I'm working with is hoping just to move forward one step, though if others want to take it further I applaud them! Right now, to get a Judging Guide that is in color and is printed, not copied, would be one big step. Given the small steps that seem to occur in the club I think we're OK with that for now but if it moves the organization toward even more change, I'm all for it!

To cause such change I think that in the NCRS we need to move one step at a time even though many of us can see 6 steps ahead. If you're in favor of such a change then please contact those I mentioned in an earlier post. That's the most important thing for now. And, if you want to keep dreaming of the possibilities, then go for it!

Patrick

Patrick

You seem to understand the process on this matter. Just an inquire are all the NCRS manuals in the same digital format? My reason for ask is that short run printing may be an economical option to copy and have color without the extended added cost. In this day it would be prudent to examine the option of direct digital to hard copy vs the old copy to copy method. Another option is the binding of manuals vs the current method. Maybe not. I don't know the who, what, and whys, but something for whom ever is involved with manual creations to look into. My daughter is involved with digital printing and suggested that Kinko's copying is a big expense and print on demand print should be looked into. The quality is much higher and DOES have color capability. All kinds of binding or leaflet are available too.

I don't know if you are the person to direct this to but it seem you do have some knowledge of the current situation.