Non DOT Tire Date Codes

[Terry M.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

Why are these types of resources kept secretive and only shared among a few?

Because some of us believe in making Corvette judging a fair and level playing field. I believe I expounded on my thoughts on that subject in an earlier post, but if necessary I can do that again. My late-night mistake was to reveal that I had those codes. Mia culpa.

[Owen L.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

Because some of us believe in making Corvette judging a fair and level playing field. I believe I expounded on my thoughts on that subject in an earlier post, but if necessary I can do that again. My late-night mistake was to reveal that I had those codes. Mia culpa.

I apologize if I raised your hackles that was not my intent. Just curious why (and now, how it keeps it level) closely held information is being closely held. I can't foresee myself ever seeking judging, so to me my question was just an academic curiosity.

[Gary B.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

To answer Terry's concern's. When "I" added them to the 68-69 Manual and 70-72 manual, I did an "Internet" search and found it under the Mustang club for Goodyear tires. I re-wrote it, re-formatted it, for the the 68-69 Manual. I added pictures, charts and graph's to suit. So... Technically I did not steel it from Terry. But I do remember where Terry got his info and it's pretty darn similar.

I believe the problem Terry has... Since we published the Goodyear data, Goodyear tires get a deduction during judging, other "Brands" get a free pass. Yes... even though "we" added... Until Firestone and Uniroyal date codes become available, NOIt has gone mostly un-noticed by the judges. Laws of selective reading?? Or just plain forgot?

Maybe it's time to take it back out.

Gary Bosselman

[Terry M.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

I apologize if I raised your hackles that was not my intent. Just curious why (and now, how it keeps it level) closely held information is being closely held. I can't foresee myself ever seeking judging, so to me my question was just an academic curiosity.

This is a very long story that has played out over the last 40 or so years. It is going to sound like a history report, but playing out over that long time it is exactly what it is. Have some patience as you read through it, and remember YOU ASKED.

The person who gave me the information around 40 or slightly more years ago was a Goodyear employee. He thought his job would be negatively impacted if the information release was tracked back to him and he thus asked me to keep the codes private. Once retired he still had the same fear regarding his retirement income. (As an aside: many Chevrolet/GM employees have the same concerns and that is why much of the vintage information that exists only becomes available through the GM Heritage Center, and then only to trusted individuals.) He gave me this information before there was a CDCIF program. Our judging system was very different at that time. And he gave it to me because I was a Team Leader and he thought it would be useful to us in making our cars better representations of cars as produced by Chevrolet and he knew that I believed that also. A very few of us owned/own Corvettes that still have their original installed tires (and, as the joke goes, the St Louis air as well ). Once my source passed I believed I was no longer bound by my promise to him and I began to offer the service of de-coding tires. Thus a few people began to know I had those codes.

Somewhere between 1974, when NCRS began, and the early 1990s, more Corvette owners began to hire restorers to work on their cars. Many of those restorers had been Corvette owners who turned their hobby into their profession. Then came the advent of the CDCIF system and the expanded TIM&JG (Technical Information Manual and Judging Guide). Note it says "INFORMATION MANUAL." The idea in the early 1990s when the Judging Manuals became the TIM&JG, was that we were supposed to include INFORMATION in the manual that would help the owner/restorer make his car better without respect to whether we judged those items. However the Standard Deduction system remained, with modifications and expansions, from the earlier judging system

Eventually I was seduced, by those who knew I had them, into providing those codes for the chrome bumper C3 manuals. Some people on those manual revision teams believe that we should publish ALL the information we know. Well here is the result of that experiment, in one small way.

Judges began to read the tire date codes for older Goodyear (before the Federal date standards went into effect in Spring of 1971) tires using the codes in the TIM&JG. This is in spite of the manuals stating clearly that these codes are not to be used in judging. They made/make a date deduction for those older Goodyear tires that were out of the six-month window. I, and the few of us who know the rules, have been unable to convince these judges that Standard Deductions apply to tires and CDCIF does not. We have had small successes at those events we have been at, but the few of us can not be at every meet all over the country, nor can we monitor all exterior 1968 to 1972 judging even at those events we do attend. So the end result is those people with Firestone tires get no date assessment, but Goodyear owners do. That is the un-leval playing field. To make this situation worse: we see owners and restorers bragging on the internet and in national print publications about the score their car got. This usually happens only if the car scored 98+%, so the small date deduction on tires makes a greater impact than it should. This practice results in the comparing of one car to another. This practice amplifies the reach of the playing field and in my opinion goes a long way to casting NCRS in the negative light which many non-members hold NCRS. Once the codes are in the public domain there is no way to stop this inevitable process.

I guess my question to those who want these codes is "why?" They should serve no purpose under the current judging rules. Tire dates should not be a factor in judging and thus the codes are not needed.

You haven't raised my hackles. I am too old for that sort of thing. The last time someone did that was about thirty years ago at my day job (I dispatch electrical utility workers) when a field person very nearly killed himself because a string of people, ending with one very lucky person, didn't listen to me. Then my hackles were up. See me in person some time and I will tell you the rest of that very ugly story.

I will step down from my soap box now. Sorry to be so long winded. Blame it on my Irish heritage.

[Terry M.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

To answer Terry's concern's. When "I" added them to the 68-69 Manual and 70-72 manual, I did an "Internet" search and found it under the Mustang club for Goodyear tires. I re-wrote it, re-formatted it, for the the 68-69 Manual. I added pictures, charts and graph's to suit. So... Technically I did not steel it from Terry. But I do remember where Terry got his info and it's pretty darn similar.

I believe the problem Terry has... Since we published the Goodyear data, Goodyear tires get a deduction during judging, other "Brands" get a free pass. Yes... even though "we" added... Until Firestone and Uniroyal date codes become available, NOIt has gone mostly un-noticed by the judges. Laws of selective reading?? Or just plain forgot?

Maybe it's time to take it back out.

Gary Bosselman

You are much more concise than I am.

I doubt many Corvette enthusiasts would have found them on the Mustang site. Even at that it would have taken a lot longer for those codes to get out if they were not in the judging manual. And my giving them to you made formatting them a lot easier -- or so you said some time back.

Taking them out will do little good. You can't put toothpaste back in the tube. However taking them out will stop some of the chapter problems where the judges use the judging manual for their only resource. That might be something to consider for the next revision. I might even support it. Let's us and the rest of the team consider that when the time comes. The one positive is having them for Bow Tie judging.

[Larry M.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

Terry:

Thank you for your explanation in Post #17 as to how all this got started and how it progressed. Also THANK YOU for all your excellent work for both NCRS and preserving the Corvette Marque over the last half century. .

Larry

[Mark F.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

...I believe the problem Terry has... Since we published the Goodyear data, Goodyear tires get a deduction during judging, other "Brands" get a free pass. Yes... even though "we" added... Until Firestone and Uniroyal date codes become available, NOIt has gone mostly un-noticed by the judges. Laws of selective reading?? Or just plain forgot? Maybe it's time to take it back out. Gary Bosselman

...Taking them out will do little good. You can't put toothpaste back in the tube. However taking them out will stop some of the chapter problems where the judges use the judging manual for their only resource. That might be something to consider for the next revision. I might even support it. Let's us and the rest of the team consider that when the time comes. The one positive is having them for Bow Tie judging.

Gary and Terry,

I agree with Larry M and this has been a very interesting string!

I hope we don't go down a track where quality information such as the Goodyear date coding systems and data are removed from our TIMJGs because some judges are misusing(?) it (in this case). As alluded to above, having the data included in the TIMJG is not the root cause of the problem. At least one of the root causes is uninformed(??maybe there's a less harsh word?) judges.(PLEASE NOTE: this is not meant as a criticism of any individual - it simply appears to be a fact based on what has been presented).

We have other info in our TIMJGs that is not judged - transmission castings and numbers; differential castings and numbers, cylinder head casting numbers and date codes, etc. I agree info occasionally needs to be pulled if it's out-of-date, is determined to be incorrect, or not properly validated - none of which appears to be the case here. Also, as alluded to above, not everything in a TIMJG is a judging issue - some of it is there for those who are interested...part of the fun of this hobby IMO.

My vote is to leave it in there...and thanks for all the detailed explanations...

[Terry M.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

[QUOTE=Mark Francis (30800);906467]Gary and Terry,

I agree with Larry M and this has been a very interesting string!

....

We have other info in our TIMJGs that is not judged - transmission castings and numbers; differential castings and numbers, cylinder head casting numbers and date codes, etc. I agree info occasionally needs to be pulled if it's out-of-date, is determined to be incorrect, or not properly validated - none of which appears to be the case here. Also, as alluded to above, not everything in a TIMJG is a judging issue - some of it is there for those who are interested...part of the fun of this hobby IMO.

[QUOTE]

Mark: Thank you for your thoughtful consideration.

The items you cite (- transmission castings and numbers; differential castings and numbers, cylinder head casting numbers and date codes) are less accessible on the flight judging field, so they don't present the same issues as the tire codes. I will throw in a ringer here: The judging of batteries has similar issues as tires. That has been alluded to in another thread by another poster.

I am somewhat conflicted on the tire date issue, since we do use it in Bow Tie Judging. In that situation we do use differential and transmission information also. While the TIM&JG is not a Bow Tie book, it is used by both owners and judges in that preservation assessment.

The obvious solution to the tire and battery issues is increased training for judges. Where the problem is greatest is at the chapter level; and often the people judging at that level have not had access to many/any of our training classes. I am perplexed how to get our training classes to the chapter level. Just something to think about.

[Owen L.]

Re: Non DOT Tire Date Codes

...and remember YOU ASKED.

Yes I did! And, I thank you for the time it took to respond so thoroughly. Makes perfect sense and as an outsider to judging it alleviates the thoughts that information is being "held back" unfairly. NCRS does gain a negative opinion when folks don't know why something is in place, or how skewed application of judging criteria can appear, or they don't understand the true mission of the Society. Thank you again for your dedication to NCRS and the cars.