Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

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  • Edward M.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • November 1, 1985
    • 1913

    #1

    Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

    It occurs to me that changes in the old Corvette hobby are occurring, and not always for the better, originality wise.

    I am seeing a number of previously NCRS Top Flighted / Bloomington Gold cars getting turned into resto-mods.

    6-8 months ago I watch a very nice 340 hp 4 speed 63 coupe, red, black interior, ex-Top Flight car get disassembled.

    The chassis was parted out, and a StreetShops chassis put under the car.

    An LS motor, 6 speed trans, A/C, P/S, P/B was added.

    The body was then stripped, all gaps reset to 3/16 inch, and then repainted base clear.

    The car was beautiful when they started; it was even more beautiful when they finished.

    Now, add to that the point that not a lot of old Corvettes, relatively speaking, are being restored to NCRS style factory original condition compared to just 5 years ago.

    It also seems apparent that the number of cars submitted for judging to NCRS events continue to decline.

    So, less cars being restored to original condition, less cars submitted for judging, and more previously judged cars being modified to better suit the owner's is all part of the picture.

    I even read recently that someone was modifying their 1953 Corvette.

    What does this mean for an organization like NCRS (and Bloomington).

    The rare / elusive cars will continue to be hunted down and restored (L-88s, LS-6s, big tank cars, etc.) but people are even modifying original Fuel Injected cars (with add on aftermarket A/C, as an example).

    I don't know how to encourage people to restore their cars to factory correct condition, particularly when the market is shifting so much in favor of resto-mods and / or add on creature comforts so people can enjoy driving their cars more.

    I recently went searching for a nice driver quality mid-year. When I announced this intention, one of my good Corvette friends reminded me that mid-year cars don't drive like new cars. He even brought one of his mid year cars over for me to test drive just to remind me of that fact.

    I knew what I was getting into, and I found a very nice driver quality 64 coupe with original 300 hp engine and 4 speed trans. It has add on power steering and power brakes.

    I love driving this car, but I am constantly reminded that I actually have to DRIVE this car. It requires constant slight adjustments to the steering, etc. Just like I remember fro back in the day.

    I love driving this car, but I would not want to drive it long distance. It really is work to drive these old cars.

    The pendulum for auto restoration swings back and forth, and I sincerely hope that it swings back toward nicely restored original cars. But my fear is that these old Corvettes will go the way of the Ford Model T, and the 1955-1957 Tri-Five Chevy cars.

    Original restorations are costly, and generally money losing propositions. Driver restorations and / or resto-mods make more sense economically speaking.

    Hoping for the best....
  • Bill M.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • August 1, 1989
    • 1253

    #2
    Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

    Ed

    I can tell you one thing. I have a cost to paint my no hit all original every gap great 67 coupe of 30K. I thought he was taking the body off so I could bring the chasis home! nope another 5 K for that. So she will where her old paint till I pass it on to one of my sons and the 502 and suspension will be installed the original air will go on the pile and vintage air will be installed. at least he will keep the car.

    Bill

    Comment

    • Michael J.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • January 27, 2009
      • 6870

      #3
      Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

      True, the aftermarket A/C mods are the worst to take..........

      But seriously, I don't see the issue at all. The older cars are great for pleasure driving around town, to events, etc. I drive my tankers all the time, and totally unmodified. I have a new Corvette for longer trips in hot areas of the country, that fulfills all my automobile needs. Of course I too have a 700 HP truck to tow a trailer with an old Corvette on long trips in hot places, and judging of course.....
      Last edited by Michael J.; March 20, 2018, 05:28 PM.
      Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico

      Comment

      • Edward M.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • November 1, 1985
        • 1913

        #4
        Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

        These are actually two separate issues.

        Issue 1 is the discussion about add on aftermarket add on equipment. THis is in another thread.

        Issue two is the changing demographics of the vehicles. Many vehicles (way too many for my preference) are being modified from nic ce original cars to more driver friendly / resto-mod.

        I am really thinking about the hobbyist that doesn't have multiple toys, or perhaps has a few toys that they really want to enjoy more.

        If it were up to me, I would have the owner of a nice original car sell it, and buy a less original car with the mods that they want (or get a less original car to modify in the first place).

        But that is not what is happening.

        First, nice original cars cost a small fortune to get to the level of a nice original car. And unless the car is particularly rare, the restorer is not going to get their money back out of that car.

        As an nice clear example, I was talking with the owner of a very nice original ex top flight 64 coupe, 300hp with factory powerglide, power steering, and power brakes, and a very attractive and popular color combination. He was looking to sell the car and build a less original car to drive.

        The restorer told me that he had a bit over $85K in the car, not counting his labor. He was trying to sell the car, and his final price was $67500.
        It was not selling at that price (a $17,500 loss). He had a $60K offer on the car, which he would not accept.

        The owner gave up trying to sell the car, and added some nice aftermarket ad ons like Vintage Air, and EFI system on an edelbrock intake, upgraded distributor, 4 wheel disc brakes. He also added a set of bolt on knock offs, and removed the original steel wheels and hub caps.

        The car is still beautiful, but no longer original.

        My personal preference would have been for the owner to sell the original car (which he tried to do), and then buy or build a modified C2 coupe that was more to his liking.

        The owner had campaigned the car through NCRS and Bloomington, but then could not get out of the car for a price he was comfortable with.
        His ultimate goal was to have a car he could enjoy driving more; and that is what he ended up with. But "WE" lost a nice original car.

        What can "WE" do to try and stop those sorts of things from happening? I don't know, and I wish I had an answer to this issue.

        But the economics of this situation are clear.

        For most of these old Corvettes, the cost to restore generally exceeds the value of the car when completed. Now we all know that these are pretty much a labor of love, but economics DO factor into it.

        So here is the question:

        Take an average condition 1965 coupe, 300hp, 4 speed, radio, and a couple of minor options. A no hit body, but the car needs a complete restoration. so, not counting the cost of the car.

        Option 1 - Restore to NCRS top flight level - Cost roughly $80K, value when complete roughly $60K
        Option 2 - Restore to nice driver level (including adding some comfort options) - Cost roughly $65K, value when complete roughly $55K
        Option 3 - Restore as a low end resto-mod (using original frame) - Cost roughly $70K, value when complete roughly $80K
        Option 4 - Restore as a high end resto-mod (custom frame) - Cost roughly $120K, value when complete roughly $175K

        Yes, these are very rough and very general estimates, but are reflective of the current trends.

        Restore to NCRS original condition ultimately loses the owner the most money. Modifying as a low end or high end resto-mod makes a few dollars for the owner. Restoring as a nice driver still loses money (or if they are lucky breaks even) but they have a car they can enjoy much more.

        How do we help encourage owners / restorers to continue to restore cars to factory original condition under these circumstances.

        I don't have an answer to this one.

        Comment

        • Michael J.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • January 27, 2009
          • 6870

          #5
          Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

          That's an awful lots of navel gazing, and a lot of speculation about what a person will or won't do. I can only speak for myself, and I have been restoring and having cars restored for many years, and have been judging and taking cars to be judged in NCRS (and other organizations) for many years for all levels, chapter, regional, national. I just spent the day in my garage working on a '63 I just got. All I can say is what motivates me to restore a car to any original type standard is the fun of doing it and the joy of participating in the organization and fellow members. I would never consider going the modified route for an old car, just not my thing. It's not the money, I have lost money on every car I restored or had restored over the last 20 years. Money has nothing to do with the fun and enjoyment for me. Of your options above, I have and would always pick option #1. Pretty simple for me. I guess I am not the kind of person you are associating with in NCRS these days, however.
          Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico

          Comment

          • David H.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • July 1, 2001
            • 1317

            #6
            Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

            Originally posted by Edward McComas (9316)
            ... Many vehicles (way too many for my preference) are being modified from nic ce original cars to more driver friendly / resto-mod. ....
            For a person setting out to do a rest-mod, I think starting out with a nice car is very attractive. To improve a rough car is $$ especially with unknowns invariably surfacing. Nice to begin with, saves resto-moder (is that a word?) time and money.

            Don't know if there is an answer, however, some folks obviously see benefit in actually driving these things.

            Dave
            Judging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) Chapter

            Comment

            • Terry M.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • October 1, 1980
              • 15488

              #7
              Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

              Originally posted by Edward McComas (9316)
              These are actually two separate issues.

              Issue 1 is the discussion about add on aftermarket add on equipment. THis is in another thread.

              Issue two is the changing demographics of the vehicles. Many vehicles (way too many for my preference) are being modified from nic ce original cars to more driver friendly / resto-mod.

              I am really thinking about the hobbyist that doesn't have multiple toys, or perhaps has a few toys that they really want to enjoy more.

              If it were up to me, I would have the owner of a nice original car sell it, and buy a less original car with the mods that they want (or get a less original car to modify in the first place).

              But that is not what is happening.

              First, nice original cars cost a small fortune to get to the level of a nice original car. And unless the car is particularly rare, the restorer is not going to get their money back out of that car.

              As an nice clear example, I was talking with the owner of a very nice original ex top flight 64 coupe, 300hp with factory powerglide, power steering, and power brakes, and a very attractive and popular color combination. He was looking to sell the car and build a less original car to drive.

              The restorer told me that he had a bit over $85K in the car, not counting his labor. He was trying to sell the car, and his final price was $67500.
              It was not selling at that price (a $17,500 loss). He had a $60K offer on the car, which he would not accept.

              The owner gave up trying to sell the car, and added some nice aftermarket ad ons like Vintage Air, and EFI system on an edelbrock intake, upgraded distributor, 4 wheel disc brakes. He also added a set of bolt on knock offs, and removed the original steel wheels and hub caps.

              The car is still beautiful, but no longer original.

              My personal preference would have been for the owner to sell the original car (which he tried to do), and then buy or build a modified C2 coupe that was more to his liking.

              The owner had campaigned the car through NCRS and Bloomington, but then could not get out of the car for a price he was comfortable with.
              His ultimate goal was to have a car he could enjoy driving more; and that is what he ended up with. But "WE" lost a nice original car.

              What can "WE" do to try and stop those sorts of things from happening? I don't know, and I wish I had an answer to this issue.

              But the economics of this situation are clear.

              For most of these old Corvettes, the cost to restore generally exceeds the value of the car when completed. Now we all know that these are pretty much a labor of love, but economics DO factor into it.

              So here is the question:

              Take an average condition 1965 coupe, 300hp, 4 speed, radio, and a couple of minor options. A no hit body, but the car needs a complete restoration. so, not counting the cost of the car.

              Option 1 - Restore to NCRS top flight level - Cost roughly $80K, value when complete roughly $60K
              Option 2 - Restore to nice driver level (including adding some comfort options) - Cost roughly $65K, value when complete roughly $55K
              Option 3 - Restore as a low end resto-mod (using original frame) - Cost roughly $70K, value when complete roughly $80K
              Option 4 - Restore as a high end resto-mod (custom frame) - Cost roughly $120K, value when complete roughly $175K

              Yes, these are very rough and very general estimates, but are reflective of the current trends.

              Restore to NCRS original condition ultimately loses the owner the most money. Modifying as a low end or high end resto-mod makes a few dollars for the owner. Restoring as a nice driver still loses money (or if they are lucky breaks even) but they have a car they can enjoy much more.

              How do we help encourage owners / restorers to continue to restore cars to factory original condition under these circumstances.

              I don't have an answer to this one.
              Ed
              Allow me to suggest you stop worrying about other people and what they decide to do. Set your own course for your own reasons.

              Every "original" (I put that in quotes because there is no 100% original Corvette except the current C7s that are leaving the factory) car that goes to a reso-mod makes the remaining "original" cars more valuable both in terms of dollars and in terms of research information.

              Each of us decides what to do with our own cars based on our own reasons and no one has to agree with those decisions. It iis a fools errand to make these kinds of decisions based on the opinions of others. As I said at the beginning: Set your own course for your own reasons and be happy.
              Terry

              Comment

              • Frank D.
                Expired
                • December 27, 2007
                • 2665

                #8
                Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                I don't really "worry" about it.

                But - some commentary. I know two top restomodders - one 12 miles away and another about 35 miles away (both are NCRS judges BTW)....I've seen dozens of their builds. They are not always project cars with the drivetrains gone. Most recently a one-owner 63 340hp convertible - basically a survivor....I did manage to snag some original parts off it before the changeover. Heater box snorkel, radiator core support, etc.. Drivetrain/frame are sold off, body dropped on a Corvette Corrections or Jameson chassis with suspension/tranny/motor/etc in a single roller, new soft parts, gauges and sound system and then they sell (and quickly) for $145K or more.

                There are well heeled people who don't give two nits about our original stuff...they want the 'look' but with enhanceed performance and comfort...and have several hundred thou to throw at their desire; its just another segment of the hobby and growing -- judging by the insane C1 restomod prices at the last few auctions. There is one original car out of these four Corvettes - my SWC.

                I don't lose sleep over it. I would debate that it makes our cars more valuable though, more likely the restomod sharks will circle it in the future with a gleam in their eye...
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • Terry M.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • October 1, 1980
                  • 15488

                  #9
                  Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                  Originally posted by Frank Dreano (48332)
                  I don't really "worry" about it.

                  ........

                  I don't lose sleep over it. I would debate that it makes our cars more valuable though, more likely the restomod sharks will circle it in the future with a gleam in their eye...
                  Perhaps "worry" was a wrong choice of words on my part. "Concern" might have been a better choice.

                  Frank, you are making hay out of the situation: Harvest the parts you need/want.

                  I do think the situation makes our original cars more valuable. I see the "resto-mod" trend as a fad that will pass given enough time. All we have to do is hang in there long enough. I know that for some of us that change in trend will not come soon enough, but others will survive long enough.
                  Terry

                  Comment

                  • Michael J.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • January 27, 2009
                    • 6870

                    #10
                    Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                    This so-called "restomod" craze is nothing new, and should "concern" no one. I did it as a teen with a '57 Chevy in 1965, my brother did it with a '32 deuce coupe in the '40s. But then you grow up get some experience with other things, make your choices about what spins your wheels, and go that direction. The fact others take a different direction means nothing to you, or shouldn't.
                    Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico

                    Comment

                    • David R.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • June 30, 2014
                      • 180

                      #11
                      Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                      I decided a long time ago what I wanted to do. After over 40 years of Corvette ownership, I sought out a C1 as a retirement gift to myself. I wanted a car I could drive and enjoy on nice days, and take to a few local shows. I wanted a 1962 if I could find one - I just love that 327. Also had to have a 4-speed. I finally found what I wanted - a very nice, 62K original mile car with all matching numbers, and bone stock. I haven't done a lot to it, just basically cleaned it up and fixed whatever wasn't working. It has never occurred to me to add Vintage Air or power steering, even though those additions would certainly make the car nicer to drive. I like it the way it is - just the way GM built it. It has a few nicks and dings on it - but hell, so do I. The enjoyment I get from winding that small-block through the gears on a back road more than compensates. I have never had the car NCRS judged - no meets close enough to me to drive to. But the reality is, I bought the car for ME, not for the next owner. Whenever he or she gets it after I'm gone, what they do with it is up to them. They will be getting a car they can go any way they choose with. I hope they leave it alone and enjoy it, as I do. There are fewer and fewer C1s left that you can actually hop in and DRIVE. Mine is one of them. Restomods are fine, if that's your choice . . . just not for me. If I want a "modern" ride, I have a C7 for that. The old saying, "It's your car, it's your money - so it's your choice" always applies. I understand the OP's concern - and yes, there seem to be fewer and fewer nice, stock C1s at the shows. Some folks tell me that will make mine worth more money in the future - but I couldn't care less about that. I'm in this for the love of the car, not the love of the cash. And I feel like I've already won. Just my opinion, of course.

                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                      • Joe R.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • August 1, 1976
                        • 4523

                        #12
                        Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                        Ha, Ha!!!!

                        Poncho is having a time throwing out these threads and laughing his rear end off!!!!!

                        Cool it as he can't get his breath back!

                        If you don't understand what I'm talking about your NCRS number ain't low enough!

                        JR

                        Comment

                        • Edward M.
                          Extremely Frequent Poster
                          • November 1, 1985
                          • 1913

                          #13
                          Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                          Originally posted by Joe Ray (1011)
                          Ha, Ha!!!!

                          Poncho is having a time throwing out these threads and laughing his rear end off!!!!!

                          Cool it as he can't get his breath back!

                          If you don't understand what I'm talking about your NCRS number ain't low enough!

                          JR
                          Now, now, JR, no reason to doubt my reasons.

                          My requests for information and suggestions remain honest and valid.

                          And I have no idea who Poncho is.

                          Pedro

                          Comment

                          • Joe R.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • August 1, 1976
                            • 4523

                            #14
                            Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                            Sorry Pedro,

                            Got my Spanish all gummed up!

                            JR

                            Comment

                            • Michael J.
                              Extremely Frequent Poster
                              • January 27, 2009
                              • 6870

                              #15
                              Re: Vehicle demographics in 2018 and beyond

                              Originally posted by Joe Ray (1011)
                              Ha, Ha!!!!

                              Poncho is having a time throwing out these threads and laughing his rear end off!!!!!

                              Cool it as he can't get his breath back!

                              If you don't understand what I'm talking about your NCRS number ain't low enough!

                              JR
                              Thanks for the heads-up. We will know better next time, fool me once.........
                              Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico

                              Comment

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