R12 Refrigerant

[Larry M.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Well I did get the cost of R12. The company I got the quote from is United refrigeration. A world wide company with over 400 branches that not only distributes refrigeration and air conditioning equipment, refrigerants and parts they also manufacture all of them. They are a big player. I was quoted $1025 for a 30 lb. cylinder, $1222 with NYS tax. I was shocked at the cost, I had thought the price had gone down due to low demand.

So at that price you'd be paying $40/lb. Obviously things are cheaper in quantities so I did some math. I regularly see 12 oz. cans of R12 for $30 or more on eBay, Craigs list, etc.. If you pay $30 for a 12 oz. can that's $40/lb. Given the small quantity a bargain at $30 per can. So if you're interested in a cylinder and have a refrigerant handling certification google URI.com and run out and get yours!

Tom:

Real world prices are lower than what you state for R12. But you have to shop around a bit. Don't stock up during the hot summer......wait for the cooler months. Look for discounts.

I just paid $20/lb to buy a 1/2 jug from my home AC guy. He wanted to get rid of the refrigerant. A friend in California paid $400 for a full 30 lb jug of Dupont R12 AND a used Robinair refrigerant recovery system. Both for the $400.

I have 2 lifetimes worth of R12 in the garage............so I guess I am a very wealthy man. I try to help others with their old car AC systems and generally provide both my own labor as well as the R12 refrigerant at no charge. Trying to help the old Corvettes and the old Corvetters (owners) in this hobby.

Many switch to R134a which is also fine.


Larry

[Tom L.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

I get that ANYTHING, even refrigerants, can be purchased for less than their market value when dealing with people looking to unload and are not businesses trying to make a profit. If it's a hobby and you want to stock up then CL and ebay are great resources but the things you need are not always available when you need them.

I keep an inventory of the refrigerants, there are 5 that I use regularly, R290 (Propane) that I've only used once, have another 3 that are obsolete and my supply of R12 and R22 that are for friends only but once gone that's it. When I need to replenish I can't wait until an opportunity pops up. For the work I do I just go to my wholesaler, pay the market price and charge accordingly. Wouldn't even suggest to a customer that I was waiting to find an opportunity to purchase it on the cheap on an auction site. That would be bad for business. An overheated customer, or their product, is a very unhappy customer.

[James G.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Moved to Texas in September. I have a 1972 base coupe with a/c. The refrigerant hasn’t been serviced since 2006 and a/c blows cool, not cold air. Definitely need the a/c working in this part of the country. Does anyone know of a source to purchase some R12 to avoid a conversion?

Where in Texas James? I know good shops in Ft. Worth and San Antonio . A friend in FW just repaired his 65 rare 365hp AC system over the weekend and charged it R-12 yesterday

[Dick W.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

I get that ANYTHING, even refrigerants, can be purchased for less than their market value when dealing with people looking to unload and are not businesses trying to make a profit. If it's a hobby and you want to stock up then CL and ebay are great resources but the things you need are not always available when you need them.

I keep an inventory of the refrigerants, there are 5 that I use regularly, R290 (Propane) that I've only used once, have another 3 that are obsolete and my supply of R12 and R22 that are for friends only but once gone that's it. When I need to replenish I can't wait until an opportunity pops up. For the work I do I just go to my wholesaler, pay the market price and charge accordingly. Wouldn't even suggest to a customer that I was waiting to find an opportunity to purchase it on the cheap on an auction site. That would be bad for business. An overheated customer, or their product, is a very unhappy customer.

I don't expect R-22 prices to go crazy once people discover there is a compatible drop in such as R-410

[Tom L.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Dick, 410a is a completely different animal from R22. Like using a ford crank in a chevy. Look up the P/T charts and you''ll see. R22 and 410a operating pressures respectively are APPROXIMATELY 250 high, 70 low. 410a 450+ high, 125 low. R22 equipment will not operate properly using 410a, no compatibility at all and never recommended. Oiling is another compatibility issue.

Compared to 3-4 years ago R22 isn't that expensive. The real deal is that #1- there are cheaper, effective alternatives in the event of a repairable leak. #2- Most A/C contractors want to sell new equipment. There are arguments for both approaches. For me, I don't have a sheet metal shop so selling new equipment is out. If a leak is reparable I'll do it and retrofit the system. If not I advise customers to find a company that can do the work that meet their needs.

[Joe L.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Dick, 410a is a completely different animal from R22. Like using a ford crank in a chevy. Look up the P/T charts and you''ll see. R22 and 410a operating pressures respectively are APPROXIMATELY 250 high, 70 low. 410a 450+ high, 125 low. R22 equipment will not operate properly using 410a, no compatibility at all and never recommended. Oiling is another compatibility issue.

Compared to 3-4 years ago R22 isn't that expensive. The real deal is that #1- there are cheaper, effective alternatives in the event of a repairable leak. #2- Most A/C contractors want to sell new equipment. There are arguments for both approaches. For me, I don't have a sheet metal shop so selling new equipment is out. If a leak is reparable I'll do it and retrofit the system. If not I advise customers to find a company that can do the work that meet their needs.

Tom-------


Is R22 the refrigerant that was used in old home refrigerators----say those from the 50's?

[Dick W.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Tom-------


Is R22 the refrigerant that was used in old home refrigerators----say those from the 50's?

And home a/c units of the 80's to somewhere in the early to mid 2000's

[James H.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Well I did get the cost of R12. The company I got the quote from is United refrigeration. A world wide company with over 400 branches that not only distributes refrigeration and air conditioning equipment, refrigerants and parts they also manufacture all of them. They are a big player. I was quoted $1025 for a 30 lb. cylinder, $1222 with NYS tax. I was shocked at the cost, I had thought the price had gone down due to low demand.

So at that price you'd be paying $40/lb. Obviously things are cheaper in quantities so I did some math. I regularly see 12 oz. cans of R12 for $30 or more on eBay, Craigs list, etc.. If you pay $30 for a 12 oz. can that's $40/lb. Given the small quantity a bargain at $30 per can. So if you're interested in a cylinder and have a refrigerant handling certification google URI.com and run out and get yours!

Probably more than I want to spend! Thank you!

[James H.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Where in Texas James? I know good shops in Ft. Worth and San Antonio . A friend in FW just repaired his 65 rare 365hp AC system over the weekend and charged it R-12 yesterday

Thank you! I am just north of Fort Worth in Keller. I purchased some brake lines from a shop north of Dallas, but they are a 40 minute or so drive. A good shop closer would be great!

[Tom L.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Joe and Dick, I don't have any memories of R22 being used in domestic Home refrigerators. Did some searching and found no references to R22 for this application. Since domestic refrierators operate at low suction pressures to insure that the freezer works R22 is basically out. Running R22 systems below 20* saturated suction temperature results in very high discharge temperatures which kill valves and rings.

I did attach a paper on the history of refrigerants that you may or may not find interesting. As I mentioned I have an old GE refrigerator from 1931 running with its original Sulpher dioxide (SO2) refrigerant. During the 30's they thought that Methyl Formate would be a better choice since SO2 was such nasty stuff. After about 5 or 6 years they went back to SO2 since Methyl Formate was not only nasty stuff but had some operating issues so they went back to SO2. Methyl Chloride was used in some capacity but it's not well documented. The only thing about that stuff that I know is a story my dad told me. As an apprentice he was sent to find a leak on a system. Dad apparently forgot that Methyl Clroride was flammable and that using a halide torch was a bad idea, lesson learned. It did teach me that not all refrigerants are the same and knowing what you're dealing with is important. Anyway, once R12 came into the picture it was the go to for domestic refrigeration until the 90's when the switch to 134a happened. Off topic but hope it helps.

http://www.r744.com/files/pdf_597.pdf

[Dick W.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Joe and Dick, I don't have any memories of R22 being used in domestic Home refrigerators. .

http://www.r744.com/files/pdf_597.pdf

I stated home a/c unit. I have no experience with refrigerators. I found out long time ago if you need to add refrigerant to a refrigerator, get your pocketbook out and go buy a new one.

[Joe L.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

Joe and Dick, I don't have any memories of R22 being used in domestic Home refrigerators. Did some searching and found no references to R22 for this application. Since domestic refrierators operate at low suction pressures to insure that the freezer works R22 is basically out. Running R22 systems below 20* saturated suction temperature results in very high discharge temperatures which kill valves and rings.

I did attach a paper on the history of refrigerants that you may or may not find interesting. As I mentioned I have an old GE refrigerator from 1931 running with its original Sulpher dioxide (SO2) refrigerant. During the 30's they thought that Methyl Formate would be a better choice since SO2 was such nasty stuff. After about 5 or 6 years they went back to SO2 since Methyl Formate was not only nasty stuff but had some operating issues so they went back to SO2. Methyl Chloride was used in some capacity but it's not well documented. The only thing about that stuff that I know is a story my dad told me. As an apprentice he was sent to find a leak on a system. Dad apparently forgot that Methyl Clroride was flammable and that using a halide torch was a bad idea, lesson learned. It did teach me that not all refrigerants are the same and knowing what you're dealing with is important. Anyway, once R12 came into the picture it was the go to for domestic refrigeration until the 90's when the switch to 134a happened. Off topic but hope it helps.

http://www.r744.com/files/pdf_597.pdf

Tom------


I have a Hotpoint refrigerator that my parents purchased new in 1953 (we had an icebox before that). This refrigerator has been operating continuously from 1953 to the present time except for a 3 month period that it was in storage when we moved to the west coast in 1957. We have used it only as a secondary refrigerator for the past 35+ years. However, it still works perfectly. I even use it to keep things that need to be especially cold. It's never been repaired or recharged in its entire life. Does it use a lot of energy? I put a meter on it some time ago to measure its electric use. Over a period of 2 months it averaged 17 cents per day even at the outrageous electrical rates we have in California.

So, are you saying that this refrigerator uses sulpher dioxide as a refrigerant?

[Tom L.]

Re: R12 Refrigerant

To the best of my knowledge SO2 was replaced by R12 by then. Westinghouse was one of the first to embrace R12 (in the late 30's I think, R12 was developed in the 20's) since it was able to operate at temperatures low enough to allow refrigerators to have a freezer cold enough to safely store food for long periods of time. My 1931 SO2 refrgerator can freeze ice cubes, a big deal at the time, but wasn't made to or advertised to freeze food safely.

And yes, they are actually pretty efficient in their electrical use. Back in late 20's and 30's electricity wasn't cheap either, it was fairly new and not in everyone's home just yet. Efficiency was on their list of requirements even then. I put a Watt meter on my old GE when I got it. At 23 cents per Kilowatt hour I think it costs about $5-6 a month to operate. I only use it in the summer as a Beer refrig and friends love the old thing. Even if it used lots of electricity I'd still use it.

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